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I would go with: Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Franzen/Holmstrom Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Franzen/Holmstrom Cleary-Draper-McCarty Abdelkader-Drake-Downey I'd rather have Drake on the third line than McCarty, except that if we make that move we end up without a fourth line center, and Drake's faceoff skills are pretty good. When everybody's healthy: Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Franzen/Holmstrom Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Hudler/Filppula-Franzen/Holmstrom Cleary-Draper-Samuelsson Maltby-Drake-McCarty/Downey

The Wings have no need to acquire a big strong center to play on a scoring line if Fedorov is on the roster. Lang was acquired to replace Fedorov...Holland even said as much. With Fedorov still around, there's no need to replace him. They might have looked into acquiring someone else...but we don't know that. Combine that with the fact that Holland was setting up for the cap environment we all knew was coming at that point; with Fedorov's deal on the books he wouldn't have added Lang's contract. He might have acquired someone whose deal was expiring, but that doesn't affect the 2005-06 roster does it?

All goalies have allowed soft goals. The fact that Ozzie allowed a couple bad goals and still had stats that compared to Conn Smythe winners tells you what...that on most nights he was actually BETTER than those guys were in their Smythe seasons. As far as Ozzie being a backup... This is the fourteenth seson Osgood has played, and it is the eleventh time he has started more games than any other goaltender on his team. The times he didn't? The past couple of years when he had some injury issues and was backing up in Detroit, and the year he was traded from NYI to St. Louis. That season, he played most of his team's games on both uniforms while he was there. Whether you like the guy or not, he's been a starter his whole career. And toby...as far as the 'other goalie' argument you used to suggest when Ozzie performing well on other teams doesn't mean anything, I will bring up his teammates on the Red Wings. Mike Vernon was a top goalie in the league for many years...and Osgood's numbers were so far ahead of Vernon's it's RIDICULOUS. Vernon obviously was still a good enough goaltender to win the Conn Smythe. Let's compare their stats on their time together with the team, from 1994-95 through 1996-97: Vernon: 95 GP, 53-24-14, 2.41 GAA, .898 Sv%, 4 SO, 23.7 SA/60 Osgood: 116 GP, 76-24-14, 2.24 GAA, .912 Sv%, 12 SO, 25.3 SA/60 So let's see...Osgood played 21 more games, had 23 more decisions, and won 23 more games. He had SIGNIFICANTLY better GAA and Sv% despite seeing 1.6 more shots per game. In the first year, Vernon was fourth in Vezina voting. In the third, he won the Smythe. And Ozzie CLEARLY outplayed Vernon by a wide margin. So either Vernon didn't deserve the Conn Smythe because it was all the team and anyone could have done it (including Osgood), or the argument that Osgood is a 'good' goaltender with inflated stats doesn't hold water.

Lang wouldn't have been acquired had Fedorov been on the team. That is a fact. That also covers most of Fedorov's salary. Datsyuk and Zetterberg would have been the second line if Fedorov had stayed, so they would have seen less ice and likely scored fewer points. And thusly, made less money.

Having Fedorov would have been likely offset by: No Lang; that trade never happens if Fedorov is still around. Datsyuk cheaper, likely ~2.4-2.6m Zetterberg cheaper, likely ~1.7-1.9

I've never really had quirky rituals regarding the Wings. In part because any time I noticed any sort of correlation between my activities and what actually happened, it was not a consistent correlation and, therefore, even if such things could directly affect the game, it was a scientifically insignificant relation. My dad though...hope that he's hungry when he goes to Wolverine football games...because the Wolverines score about 90% of the time when he gets up to get some food. No joke.

Ozzie's stats in the 98 playoff run were comparable to Cam Ward and Patrick Roy in years they won the Smythe. Ozzie also finished second in Smythe voting. If that's average, then why does everyone want to spend 7m to get Luongo when we can just use average goaltending to win the Cup?

A large number of those fans have been there since Saturn started operations in the area. In other words, they were existing GM employees who relocated within the company. Not carpetbaggers, technically.

I guess there are philosophical differences in the approach to this thread then. Some people are looking at it as 'Which of these defensemen would you rather have on the Wings' and some are looking at it as a 'If you were building a team, and had to take one of these guys, but could only take one, who would it be?' and this difference is carried out in the votes. Because you're right, Commodore is probably a better fit for the Wings. But Liles is the better player, and it's not even close. And just so you know...if the Wings DID get Liles, they wouldn't think twice about dropping Lebda. I do NOT understand the man-crush for Lebda on this board.

My favorite memory of Floppa not responding with his fists? Yzerman had just gathered the puck at the blueline, and Forsberg comes flying with an elbow from the blind side. Yzerman sees him at the last second and ducks his head, causing Forsberg to go flying by. Yzerman tries to go after the gutless turd, and Forsberg has to hide behind his teammates and the referees. From Steve Yzerman. This is a guy Avs fans claimed was some kind of dominant power forward, and he's running away from Steve Yzerman?

Liles has a solid two-way game and doesn't back down. Yes he's small, but the question was which defenseman would you take. Liles is easily the top defenseman in that group. No, he's not a huge monstrosity who will dominant opponents physically. Guess what...neither is Commodore.

If Philly loses, Caps would get sixth seed by points, after tiebreakers. Had the Canes won against Florida, Washington would still be in the playoffs, even if Philly wins today. For those of you bashing the Southeast and saying that they needed a guaranteed seed to make the playoffs...had Florida (A SE team) lost to Carolina as they did to Washington, the SE would have two teams in..Carolina at the 3rd seed and Washington at the 6th or 7th seed.

Vernon was brought in after Osgood's rookie season. 1998 was the first season Osgood was given the start for the playoffs because Bowman preferred veteran goaltenders. If you switch Ozzie and Fuhr's teams and age, Edmonton wins all those Cups again. I don't know if Detroit wins the Cup in 98 with Fuhr instead of Ozzie. You listed them during your 'goalies who played during Ozzie's career who were better' list. That generally implies you thought they were better. And even if the list went to 60 names...it still doesn't invalidate my original point about Osgood being the only Wings contender for 'top goalie' since crozier. Bowman thought Vernon was the better choice in 1997. Guess what? Bowman also though Essensa would give the Wings a better shot in the playoffs than Osgood in 1994. How did that turn out? Just because Scotty Bowman thought it, does not mean it is factual or not debatable. Not to mention...starting Vernon in 97 over Osgood is like the Senators' decision to trade for Tom Barrasso and name him starter over Patrick Lalime in 2000. They had a hot young goaltender who was thought of as the future of their franchise in net, and was only in his first couple seasons. They acquired a veteran netminder who had won the Cup 8 seasons previous, and handed him the job even though he was consistently outperformed in the regular season by the youngster. Granted, nobody will suggest that Lalime has had a better career...but he was better at the time, and the team went with the vet. Going with the proven veteran over your hot young guy happens all the time, regardless of who ends up with the better career. Especially in a tandem situation like the Wings used with Ozzie and Vernon, where one guy is early better but the other guy gets a chunk of the starts and has won a Cup. Had Yzerman won the 1997 Smythe (which he should have IMO), though, I don't think people would be so quick to say 'the team won in spite of Osgood' as they do. But I'd like to see Vernon win the Cup in 97 without Konstantinov on the blue line...

I don't care if he stops the puck by taking off his mask and catching it between his teeth. Just as long as he STOPS them.

The 98 team was easily the worst group of skaters of the three Cup teams. The 2002 team was easily the best. So the argument that the 98 team won in spite of Osgood must then, by extension, be applied to Vernon and Hasek. Furthermore, Osgood was second in Smythe voting behind a unanimous decision for Yzerman. This means that Yzerman won the Cup in spite of the other 19 players on the team, correct? Because if the team won in spite of Osgood, and Osgood was the second most valuable player on the team, that means that there were 18 regulars who did even less to win the Cup than Ozzie did right? And as far as great goaltenders steling wins in the playoffs...how about game 6 vs Dallas in 1998? Detroit was playing very poorly, and it was Osgood's lights out play that prevented Detroit from heading back to Dallas for a game 7. If you're going to say 'he let in some long goals, he shouldn't be a hall of famer' then you'll have to disqualify Hasek, Roy, and Brodeur. And as there's nobody else in the past 30 years as good as those three, it means that there have been no hall-of-fame goaltenders in the NHL in my lifetime. Which is a ridiculous statement.

Let's put this little misunderstanding to rest now, shall we? Gordie Howe was and is the greatest ever at his position. Terry Sawchuk was and is the greatest ever at his position. Delvecchio never held that title. Abel never held that title, and is IMO the fourth best at his position just among guys in this conversation. Lindsay may have held that title at one point, but he had lost it 20 years before his jersey was retired. So being 'the greatest ever' is obviously NOT a requirement for Wings jersey retirement. The closest I can see your argument to being is that you have to at one point have been the best Wing ever at your position...which opens the door to about 20 more names, including Goodfellow, Kelly, Normie Smith, and many others. There have been few players who have played for Detroit as long as Ozzie has with the kind of quality Ozzie has provided. most of that group is retired. So it's not unreasonable to suggest that Osgood could end up in the rafters after the next three years. Fedorov, based on his play only, is probably more deserving than Osgood. But his contract disputes have had an effect on his chances...which is why I said he would likely have to return and play well for it to happen.

Osgood was the best goalie in the league in 1996. He finished second that year. Carey did beat him for the Vezina, but that was a case of voters being blinded by shutout numbers. Ozzie had better GAA and save percentage, and a better W-L record. Most big publications, including THN, named Ozzie as the league's top goaltender that year. That certainly fits my bill as the only Wings netminder 'arguably the best goalie in the league' since Crozier. No other Wings goalie has been a first team or second team all star either from 1966-1995 or from 1997-2007. As far as much of your list...I would disagree with many on the list. Case in point: Scott Stevens or Paul Coffey? Who was better. Most people will say Stevens. Coffey owns three Norris trophies to Stevens' zero. So what does it mean? Perhaps a player who had a higher peak hasn't necessarily had a better career? I would argue that Fuhr did not deserve the Vezina in 1988--Patrick Roy did. Fuhr to me is one of the most overrated goaltenders in history. He was a GOOD goaltender on an AMAZING team. Osgood has better numbers despite having had worse teams in better divisions. And many of the guys you mentioned won their Vezinas in the 80s, like Fuhr. Had Osgood played in the 80s instead of the 90s, he is likely to win two or three Vezinas. I have said it on this topic before...the quality of goaltending in the 80s was horrendous. Any of the 30 starters in the league and several backups would have been perrenial Vezina contenders had they played in the 80s. There were maybe four or five goalies playing then who would have been capable of starting consistently in today's NHL. So the use of ONLY Vezina awards in the 1980s to suggest that a goaltender was better than someone who didn't play until the mid 90s is a bit of a weak argument. Like arguing that Brad Park was a worse defenseman than Rob Blake. Just not true. Only one guy played his prime opposite Bobby Orr. As for the inclusion of Luongo...if both goalies retired today I would say Osgood has had the FAR superior career. Luongo will now be facing serious questions about his clutch performance after how poorly he performed down the stretch with Vancouver fighting for a playoff spot. Osgood has been in that situation before (2002 and 2004) and played phenomenally to carry his team into the postseason. Vernon was not better than Osgood. Richter has never come as close to the Vezina as Ozzie did in 1996, and doesn't have the career stats that Ozzie does. He also doesn't have a better playoff pedigree. Why exactly do people keep trying to say he was better? I would argue that Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek have been better. Osgood falls into the second tier of guys with Belfour, Barrasso, Vernon, etc. and I would argue he is at or near the top of that group.

Ozzie is top five of his era. Top 3 is a little tougher to make...but at the same time you have to consider he is going against THREE goaltenders who all have been or will be called by some as 'the greatest ever' so it's not by not being Top 3 he's a dime a dozen player. Furthermore...the only NHL goaltender other than Sawchuk and Osgood to spent ten seasons or more in Detroit? Jim Rutherford...who was pretty terrible by comparison. Osgood has been one of the league's top goalies several times in his career AS A RED WING. I would argue Osgood has more often been among the best goalies as a Wing than Shanahan was among the best forwards or Chelios among the best defensemen. Yet those two get spoken of for retirement on here, because they were great players with great careers. Guess what? Ozzie was better than them as a Wing, and has been a Wing longer than them. If you have better quality AND more quantity, you are more deserving of jersey retirement no?

I am assuming that the Robitaille comment is a dig at Colorado about Raymond Bourque. The difference, of course, is that Bourque was still an elite talent and key component of the cup winning avs team he played on. Robitaille was depth scoring in Detroit. A better comparison to Bourque would be Hasek if he had stayed retired after 2002. I would disagree about Fedorov matching the on-ice criteria. He is arguably the third best Wings forward ever, and is certainly top five. The Wings currently have five forwards whose numbers are retired, not including Larry Aurie. The argument against Fedorov is whether the way he left means he shouldn't be honored in that way. And your answer to that depends largely on your view of 'how he left' and whether it was for a little bit more money/fame or because over the course of contract negotiations, the deals presented to him lost 1 year and $18m from the first deal to the last, with the year being the important part.

Liles. He has a good two-way skill set, is willing to get a little dirty, and is a good skater. He has no major flaws in his game ala Sergei Gonchar or Derian Hatcher. All of the other guys listed have significant flaws and their strengths don't outweigh that.

You need to take a reading comprehension class...but I'll break it down for you. Roger Crozier was the best goalie in the league in 1965. Osgood is the first Wings netminder to contend for that honor (1996) since Crozier won it. Therefore, Osgood is the first goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965. EDIT: You can name 20 goalies who have played since 1993-94 who are without question better than Osgood? I would love to see this list...because I'm sure you have names like Kiprusoff, Nabokov, and Richter on it.

I would rank Datsyuk third, personally. Granted, finishing as the third most valuable player on the Wings is like getting the bronze medal in the 100 yard dash-you're still really fast. But the suggestion that Datsyuk has more to do with the Wings' success than Lidstrom is just ludicrous and untrue. There is no 'opinion' about it. It's like gravity. Technically, gravity has not been proven...and there are competing theories (granted...they are nutjob theories involving a flat earth) but when there is so much evidence in support of it, it is basically accepted as fact.

Of current and former Wings, this is the order they are deserving of jersey retirement: #5 Lidstrom - Top 5 all-time great defenseman. Best in the league for a decade. Lock. #30 Osgood - Second best Wings goalie of all-time. First goalie the Wings have had who could argue for the title 'Best goalie in the NHL' since Roger Crozier in 1965. A few more solid years should lock it up. #91 Fedorov - He was a better player for the Wings for longer than Sid Abel, who has his number retired. That said, he left on a very bad note. If he returns to the team and plays well, he'll get it. If not, it's unlikely. #14 Shanahan - The league's top power forward for his first couple seasons in Detroit, and one of the best players on the team. Probably didn't play long enough on the Wings to earn it, and was a 'hired gun' unlike the existing retirees. He chose to sign elsewhere, which also could hurt him as he is less likely to return than Fedorov. And a note.... Fedorov did compare leaving Detroit to leaving the USSR. But not in the sense that many are portraying it. He said it referring to the fact that he was leaving everything he knew for somewhere else he had never lived. Not referring to the oppression suffered in the former USSR, and not because of the cold climate.

Not sure if anyone else noticed this... But isn't it an interesting coincidence that Vancouver just absolutely TANKED after Ohlund went down? You know...the guy I was railed on for saying he's one of the best defensemen in the NHL? They went 4-8 after he was hurt...4-9 if you count the game he was injured in. Very interesting.

Datsyuk is about as valuable as Zetterberg. Lidstrom is far more valuable than either.