eva unit zero

USC was a 41 point favorite. Michigan was a 27 point favorite. Both teams lost by a slim margin When USC lost, people called it the biggest upset ever; bigger than Appy State/UM. That would suggest USC should have dropped by at least the 20 spots Michigan dropped by, yes? Instead, they dropped 8 spots in the AP poll and 6 in the coaches. Had Michigan dropped an average of 7 spots, the way the poll works, they'd probably be in the top ten right now. USC was 42 points below where they were 'supposed' to be...Michigan was 29 points below. Michigan was not expected to kill Appy State as badly as USC was supposed to kill Stanford, the final scores were basically the same, yet Michigan was punished harder. Why is that? Oh, right...because USC is an overrated media darling.

The thread topic was 'what would it take to get Vinny.' The general consensus was 'probably Dats or Z.' Z is better than Dats at both ends. So Dats is the guy you'd want to give up. Saying 'Dats is the guy I'd be willing to give up' is not the same as saying 'Let's go trade Dats!!'

Fleichmann has less skill than Hudler. Fleischmann would not even be in the NHL at this point if he were still in the organization.

Osgood has never had a losing season. His worst season for GAA was 2.95, spent playing while injured and splitting time between two terrible defensive teams that were missing defensemen. Osgood has the numbers and accomplishments to put him in the Hall. Osgood may not have been the main reason the Wings wee dominant all through the 90s, but he was absolutely a huge reason in several of those seasons, most notably 96. Osgood went 39-6-5 in 95-96, when Mike Vernon went 21-7-2. Osgood had nearly twice as many wins as his backup, who had finished fourth in Vezina voting the previous season in his first year with the team, and was an All-Star six of eight seasons on his previous team. Maybe his wins total would be lower on bad teams had he been on bottom feeders for his career...but that would be the case with ANYBODY.

The mascots used by USC and MSU, among other schools, are no less stupidly offensive than chief wahoo. True, there are no people nowadays who can actually say 'I am a Spartan/Trojan' but that is more a result of the fact that Sparta/Troy is long since destoyed. There are certainly people who can claim their HERITAGE comes from Sparta/Troy, and have just as much right to take offense to the use of the name and cartoonish likeness as Native Americans do.

You hate good guys like Daniel Alfredsson and Martin Gerber, but not more self-centered guys like Dany Heatley and Ray Emery?

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. How many times must I go over how wrong this thought is.

Ultimately, there is no player who is untouchable. There are players, though, whose price tags in terms of assets are well beyond what any other teams would be willing to actually give up for them.

Lindros was not a bust. He was the dominant, talented force that everyone said he would be. His career was cut short by injury. Without the concussion issues, there is a good chance he IS considered one of the greatest ever at this point. A player is not a bust if he lives up to expectations but his career is cut short by injuries. Especially if he has an outside shot at making the Hall of Fame. There is no such thing as a possible HoFer who is also a bust. So that should be counted against him??

Let me clarify this for everybody. Downey is waived for one of two reasons: 1) He is the LEAST IMPORTANT PLAYER ON THE TEAM. 2) Because he is the LEAST LIKELY PLAYER TO BE CLAIMED. Either way, it doesn't make sense to waive Kopecky over Downey.

But if Lindros was a bust because of his injuries, their short careers mean they weren't among the greatest ever. Using your longevity argument, how could Orr be the greatest defenseman ever, when a guy like Bourque played twice as long and was a Norris contender every season? Orr wasn't able to play in the NHL anymore after only 12 seasons...clearly he wasnt the best defenseman ever, right?

Lindros was a Hart trophy winner in his third season...one of only a handful of players to win it so early in his career (Crosby in his second season, Gretzky in his first, Fedorov and Lemieux each in their fourth seasons to name a few) He was not a bust. If you use the fact that he couldn't maintain the level of play for an extended career, then Bobby Orr shouldn't be in the discussion for the greatest defenseman or player ever, because he only played twelve seasons. Same for Kenny Dryden.

Downey is several years older than Kopecky and not as good a player. Yes, he fights...maybe that means YOU would rather have him. But Kopecky actually has skill, size and potential...which means he would be claimed on waivers almost immediately. Downey is a career part-timer who is in his mid-30s and has never shown anything other than a willingness to fight. He won't be claimed. Even if he is...it's not a loss.

Michigan State SPARTANS sounds like a similar situation. Come to think of it, so does Los Angeles LAKERS, the bastards.

I agree. That said, Why hasn't anyone mentioned Stanford v USC....and why the hell did USC stay in the top 15 after that BS?

Daigle doesn't belong on that list, let alone Lindros. Jiri was not a bust...he was developing quite nicely when a heart ailment that couldn't have been predicted effectively ended his career. He was the Wings' best defenseman for much of his final season before his injury.

Here's the solution. Washington's new logo: Cleveland's new logo: There, now nobody will be offended.

-Igor Larionov. Pavel plays the same two-way, playmaking style. -Yes. Cheli already had three Norrises and a boatload of postseason all-star selections. -No..he's in the discussion, but there are a lot of great defensive forwards. He's definitely top 5 for two-way, though. -Howe; Richard was a great player, but it was Howe following up Richard's impressive career by blowing him out of the water in the same number that really gave such prominence to the digit. -Zetterberg -Z will likely end up around 110-115. -Dats. He's more shot-oriented now than Larionov ever was -Rafalski; Schneider's offensive output plus speed and defensive ability. -Lebda; American kid in his 20s, seems the type to surf the internet.

No, I made a statement about toughness, and you responded as if I had said 'Maltby fights as much as Perry, and would kick his ass.' Not the same thing. It's like if I said 'Michigan still has a slim mathematical chance to play in the title game' and you turned around and said 'How can you think Michigan will play in the title game?' The two are only very distantly related statements.

There you go again Lou, confusing 'toughness' with 'fighting' as if they were the same thing.

Lindros was a good player. But he doesn't belong in the HOF.

It was off Hudler's knee. From the one angle, it looked like it hit either Mason's stick or Hudler's knee. But from the overhead, you can see that the angle the puck goes in on is coming from well beyond the post, meaning it had to be Hudler's knee.

That Hudler, he'll never be an effective offensive player in the NHL. We should trade him for Bryce Salvador while we have the chance.

I normally try to stay away from statements like this...but: Anyone who believes the pile on is the sole or primary cause of Moore's neck injury, and there's no chance it could be any other way, is being a ******* MORON. Anyone with a simple understanding of physics and/or human anatomy can tell you from looking at the video that Moore's neck was almost certain broken before any players other than Bertuzzi and Moore were involved. The pile on probably didn't help, but Bertuzzi is responsible EITHER WAY.

Seeing as we've been having all these discussions on the Wings' various prospects, I thought I'd throw these out for discussion/being flamed I'm going to use the hockeysfuture.com ratings scale because I think it has a solid design--can be found here: Ratings scale: http://www.hockeysfuture.com/playerprojections.php I'm not going to rate everybody listed on hockeysfuture or red wings central, because obviously I'm not qualified to rate guys like Lofberg or Ryno (then again, how qualified are they to do so?). But I'll give ratings on some of the more prominent guys. I am also going to includ a couple guys who have since passed from the HF lists but I think are worth mentioning. Forwards: Igor Grigorenko 8.5B Jiri Hudler 8.0B Evan McGrath 8.0C Valtteri Filppula 7.5B Justin Abdelkader 7.5B Tomas Kopecky 7.5C Johan Franzen 6.5B Matt Ellis 6.0B Darryl Bootland 6.0B Jari Tolsa 6.0C Defensemen: Niklas Kronwall 9.0B Jakub Kindl 8.0B Kyle Quincey 7.5B Derek Meech 6.0B Brett Lebda 5.5C Goaltenders: Jimmy Howard 8.0B Stefan Liv 8.0C Drew MacIntyre 7.5C Joey Macdonald 7.0B