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This is seriously the most moronic position. As I have detailed COUNTLESS times on these boards for the many clueless people who think the problem is that talent in the NHL has been watered down since the 80s: There are fewer Canadians in the NHL now than there were in the 80s. This is in spite of there being an increase of 250 players. Some players whose spot among Canadian players would have been starters in goal, or top six forwards, etc. in 1987 are now third liners and backups. I'll reiterate my example of this: 181 forwards, or six per team, scored 34 points or more last season. We'll use that to define 'top six forward' because scoring is the primary purpose of a top-sixer. If the quality of talent has gotten worse because of expansion, then there should be more than 120 Canadian forwards in that group, as that's the approximate number of top six forwards who were Canadian in 1987. Yet there are only 90 Canadians who fall into that group. Alright, so we've established that about half of top-six forwards are Canadian. Let's look at goaltenders. the 20th (and last) ranked Canadian goalie in save percentage among qualifed guys was Marc Denis. That would have made him 'starter caliber' in 1987. Denis was ranked 44th out of 44 qualified goalies last season. So at best, he's a mediocre backup. Martin Biron is the lowest ranked Canadian in the top 30 at #29, and he was 12th among Canadians. So less than half of the starters in the NHL are Canadian. Based on these numbers, we'd be seeing about 30 guys who now play on the third line getting second line ice time. We'd be seeing about 8 backup goaltenders getting starter jobs. In other words, despite the fact that since 1991 the NHL has expanded by 43%, the NHL's talent pool has expanded by about 70%. If you want 80s hockey, the best way to get it by changing the number of teams is to add six or seven more teams. I personally support the idea of a 32 team league, as it would cut down travel and allow for better scheduling and division breakdowns.

is why we miss Fisch...

These three get the the absolute WTF? Marian Hossa is one of the elite players, and definitely Atlanta's best...Modano is not a top 30 player anymore...and either you ranked Marian too low TWICE in one list, or you ranked Marcel. Marcel Hossa has a LONG way to go before he can be even considered anywhere near this list.

At the same point in his career, Downey had 0 points in 1 game. And as I've said before (such as last year, with Norton) I am NOT against fighters. I am against guys who CAN'T PLAY HOCKEY, such as Norton and Downey. There were a couple games last season where Kopecky was the Wings' best forward. That will never occur for Downey. Kopecky's still young, and he's still developing. I would rather give a fourth line spot to develop a prospect than give it to someone who at best will be a wash in immediate benefit with said prospect, and at worst will be far worse.

Correct

My point was that the players as a whole felt Zetterberg was *gasp* better than Lidstrom. And Sundin, Forsberg, Lundqvist, and every other Swede. That means that based on the award voting, no defensemen and only two goaltenders were POSSIBLY better than Z...if we assume the top twelve breaks down evenly by position (6F, 4D, 2G) then the lowest spot Zetterberg could possibly have based on player opinions and award voting would be 8th, as he would be above the four defensemen. If 8th is the lowest spot he could hold..I fail to see how 5th is such a stretch,

I didn't say that having a fighter ruins our chances. I said not having a fighter doesn't ruin our chances. There is a GIGANTIC difference there that you are apparently too dense to fathom. Oh and BTW...Kopecky is in over Downey because he is a better player, and he is stil young so he can IMPROVE. The Wings see Kopecky as developing into the checking line center and faceoff specialist of the next generation of Wings. For him to move into that role, he needs to play and gain experience. If I recall correctly, you are often of the position 'let the kids play' instead of putting in a useless vet. Why should it be different in this case? Because Downey's best skill is the ability to punch? Sorry...Kopecky playing now is better for the Wings now, and in the future. If you think having an aging fighter who won't make an impact in any way is more important than developing our prospects....you have issues.

BUMP! Oh...and something that was recently brought to my attention regarding this debate: Everyone said Lidstrom is a lock i nthe top 5, but Zetterberg there is crazy. Yet Henrik Zetterberg, and not Nicklas Lidstrom, was the 2007 Viking Award winner as the best Swedish player in North America as voted on by the players. Interesting.

I was the first player from my country ever drafted in the first round of the NHL draft. After an impressive season in my homeland, I was often compared to another great player from my country who played the same position. I played a total of 15 games over two seasons before leaving the NHL for good at the age of 22. Who am I?

Hmm..it would actually be 'down there' given that Rex is currently the 1st line LW, and Dats is the 2nd line center.

I was drafted in 1983. I first played for the team that drafted me in 1994. Between being drafted and debuting for my draft team, I played almost 300 NHL games. Who am I?

Burke inherited as much of his 07 team as Holland did his 97 team, when you count that Selanne and Niedermayer had made their decision prior to Burke's hiring. Your call on how much influence Burke had on his Cup.

I didn't say he built them. You need to stop reacting and start reading Lou. Just because I don't support Aaron ******* Downey on the roster and have a rational argument about it does NOT mean I think Ken Holland is infallible or that I don't think toughness has a place on the roster. The fact remains...Ken Holland was the Wings' GM for two Cup wins...in the same time, no other GM has won more than that. Here's a list of other GMs who have won Cups since 1997. Lou Lamoirello 2 Pierre Lacroix 1 Jay Feaster 1 Jim Rutherford 1 Bob Gainey 1 Brian Burke 1 So even if Holland is only credited with the 2002 Cup, he still at very worst is tied for second. And not one of those other guys has had the consistent success Holland has had. So at worst, Holland is one of the two best GMs in the league since he took over. Oh, we poor deprived Wings fans that we only have the SECOND best GM in the NHL. That's like, guaranteed last place finishes every year, right?

You could make that argument, except it would make yo ua moron because in its two essential points it has two fatal flaws. Stefan was a FAR worse bust than Daigle, and Daigle is not even close to the worst bust of a #1. The best player from the 99 draft was the guy I said in 98 would be the best player available. I'll give you a hint; his current linemates are Jiri Hudler and Mikael Samuelsson.

And Downey is 33. Grigs is in AHL right now to get up to speed, not because he's not good enough. Sammy was 119th in points per game among forwards who played 40 or more games last season. That makes him a top-four offensive forward statistically. He was initially signed as a defensive forward, and has always been a competent defender. In 05-06, he was 134th by the same metric. A top six forward is usually one of the 180 best offensive forwards in the league; top-six forward doesn't mean '30 goal, 70 point forward' as no team has EVER been able to ice two full lines of those guys. So in other words: Since joining the Wings Samuelsson has scored at a rate that places him as a top-six offensive forward, and when combined with the fact he is defensively competent, that makes him a top-six forward in the NHL. Whether you like it or not. Kocur was a solid defender and provided clutch scoring in the playoffs. Lapointe was a consistent 15-20 goal guy who peaked in the high 20s before leaving. Shanahan was a consistent 30-40 goal guy. McCarty was a solid defensive player and contributed offense enough to spend some time in the top 6. Konstantinov was the best defenseman in the world. Rouse, Ward, and Macoun were all solid defensive defensemen who played a grinding physical style. None of those players fits the bill of 'brings fighting but nothing else.' Grimson is the last player we had who did. Oh, and regarding Holland's ability to win Cups...name a GM who has won more Cups than Holland since Holland took over in 97. I'll give you a hint: the answer is NOBODY.

Sheff played quite a few years at SS....maybe Bonds is the only FA we need to sign? Oh and BTW...he may not be the fielder he once was...but Bonds has 8 gold gloves. Bonds was about 60th in fielding percentage among outfielders with 80 or more starts...so that would make him a top-three outfielder on most teams for his defense alone.

Ellis, Grigorenko, and Kopecky are all at the beginning of their careers and are already better players than Downey. Sammy is a top six forward in the NHL based on his goals and points per game, and scored more goals during a disappointing 06-07 season than the older Downey has scored in his career. Sammy is better defensively also, and is not a soft player like you would like to have us believe. Downey offers nothing but fighting, and he's not even that good at that. Last guy we had on the roster who offered nothing but fighting? Stu Grimson. We've won three Cups since he left the team. The point being made was that even if he had an enforcer, Pronger wouldn't have had to pay; we'd have just seen our enforcer fight Parros, May, or Moen...which deters Pronger from hitting Homer again in the future? The fact that Pronger has only been in one fight (a meaningless scrap against Krys Barch at the end of a period) since the 01-02 season tells me exactly how much deterring enforcers do. None at all. You sure it doesn't mean that other teams aren't interested in a past his prime player who is only a second tier fighter and is only 6-1, 212, and doesn't make up for his lack of size or fighting ability relative to other enforcers with the ability to, oh i don't know, PLAY HOCKEY?

Grigs' contract has an out clause that says if he isn't on the NHL roster a month into the season, he can go back to Russia. He has a family, and a million dollars is a heck fo a lot better for a family than 75,000.

The only move involving Cajanek that makes sense is replacing Sammy with him...and I would rather have Sammy, as Sammy puts up more points and goals and is better defensively.

You think hockey looks like soccer now? You weren't watching during the late 90s then. Most games for most teams were boring as s*** because they all played safe defense and no-risk offense, combined with clutch and grab tactics that took away any chance for exciting plays going either way. When pylons like Rob Blake and Derian Hatcher get Norris nominations, you know there is a problem with the game of hockey. The best way to make a hockey fan is not for them to watch a game; it's for them to pick up a stick and play some street/roller hockey with friends.

Which is why he accepted a five year deal worth 40m from Anaheim and turned down a 4 year deal worth 40m from Detroit? Yep, certainly sounds like money was the issue. Definitely not the fact that the Wings offered Fedorov one deal, then presented him with something else when he was ready to sign it. That wouldn't make me consider other offers at all. Part of the Bertuzzi booing has to stem from the fact that the Wings offered him a very reasonable contract given his injury history, inconsistency, and lackluster play in a Wings jersey. Bertuzzi turned it down, as if it were an insult, and then called up the Ducks and asked if they wanted him. While that is within his right, it's unusual when a team is interested in keeping a UFA and he is interested in staying (as he said he was) for the UFA to seek other buyers.

I'm not worried about our first line. Zetterberg is one of the elite players in the league, and Hudler and Sammy are solid scoring wingers. I'm just wondering what a thread about our first line has to do with Datsyuk.

The difference between Bert and Schneider is that Bert called the Ducks, and also that Schneider was replaced with a much better player for the same money.

Ducks fans claim Corey Perry as some sortof badass. Calgary, and Canada for that matter, does so with Iginla. When have you ever heard that said about Maltby by a Wings fan? Sounds like Wings fans are the ones who are being objectiv in this regard, as Duck fans and Canadians have called Malts a ***** for his visor...

The difference being: Pronger was not a player on the Wings who wanted far more than he had shown he was worth; when the Wings didn't give it to him, he contacted the team that beat us in the playoffs and signed there. It's like the Fedorov thing, except the primary factor was actually money, and Bertuzzi never made an impact in a Detroit sweater.