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Let me rephrase; marking this ball with an asterisk is no different than marking the record books with an asterisk for Roger Maris' home run record. It's based on an 'assumed' advantage that the player in question had. There is zero evidence of Bonds using steroids. He is assumed guilty because he hit so many home runs and wo na bunch of MVPs? Guess what; Bonds was already one of the league's top sluggers in Pittsburgh. He also held the record for the most MVP awards BEFORE he is alleged to have used any sort of steroids. Bonds was ALREADY one of the greatest ballplayers ever seen BEFORE he is alleged to have used steroids. Outside of Bonds' remarkable 73 HR season, he has never cleared 50 before or after that season. He hit an average of 46 homer runs per 162 games in the five seasons preciding breaking the single season record. In the five seasons immediately following the 73 HR season, he hit an average of 48 HR per 162 games. In other words, Bonds' 73 HR season was a fluke, an anamoly, an aberration. But the fact remains that not including the 73 HR season, Bonds' career average is 40 HR per 162 games. 48 per season for a 5 year average is not an unreasonable number for a guy whose career average is 40, don't you think? It's like suggesting that Bobby Hull cheated when he scored 77 in 74-75 for the Jets, then a major pro record, compared to the consistent 44-54 goals he scored 8 times in 11 seasons from 65-66 to 74-75. Should Hull be vilified like Bonds has been?

Not Patty La.

Not Bourque.

Even if Pilar is playing poorly in Atlanta's camp, he's still better than a lot of the Hawks D.

Grigorenko is already signed to a two way contract that includes a clause that if he hasn't made the big club by November he can return to Russia. No matter who gets the 13th forward spot, we will have a good crash and bang line. Maltby/Kopecky/Drake. I would hope that since you ref Midget AAA and all that, that you know that most teams dress 12 forwards and 6 defensemen as their 18 skaters.

The answer is simple. Downey as the 13th forward has no chance of making the top 12 and does not make the team better. If Grigs is the 13th forward, he has the opportunity to get in shape and become a top-12 forward ahead of one of the current regulars. Grigs also has the skill set to be able to contribute on a scoring line should someone get injured. Therefore, Grigs is the forward competing for the final spot that has the best chance of making the Wings a better team.

Does he wear the number 7?

Grigorenko was always known as a physical player in Russia. Even if he is out of shape, that is far easier to change than the skill level of Aaron Downey. Grigorenko is a better player than Downey even though Grigs is out of shape... Don't you think Babs will want to see what can come of getting Grigs IN shape?

No, it means he's expected to be on the 23-man roster.

The Wings have 12 forwards and 6 defensemen set on the roster. The candidates for the remaning 3 slots are, in age order: Downey, 33 Sopel, 30 Hartigan, 30 Ellis, 26 Grigorenko, 24 Meech, 23 Downey, Hartigan, and Sopel will have to show considerably more than Ellis, Grigorenko, and Meech due to the age difference, and the fact that the second group of three has their best years ahead of them, while the older group is on the back side of the hill. We know they will have at least one forward and one defenseman. We'll assume that they will go with the guys on the list who are both the highest potential and the youngest; Grigorenko and Meech. Meaning we now have the spare forward and spare defenseman, and the remaning slot can be used for the best available player from the list. Hartigan and Downey are career journeymen, and Ellis has yet to crack an NHL roster. Sopel OTOH is a guy many on here felt could replace Markov in the top 4...so I think that choice is obviously a good possibility. However, Red Wings Central has a 23-man roster posted under the organization chart that includes Grigorenko, Ellis, and Meech, but this may be a result of eliminating guys who are on tryouts. Ellis is also removed from the prospects list on RWC, another sign which would seem to indicate they expect him to be on the final roster.

Why didn't the players complain about this during the testing phase? Seems like an important thing to not care about during testing.

Who should get it ahead of him? Downey? Ellis? Hartigan? None of those guys have performed any better. Grigorenko can have a disappointing camp and still be the best forward trying out.

I think it's disgusting the way Bonds has been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion, when he has never tested positive for performance enhancing drugs, and the drugs he is alleged to have used WERE NOT BANNED when he is supposed to have taken them. Irrespective of whether he took steroids or not, Bonds did nothing outside of the rules. The fact that it has never been proven despite several investigations with him as the primary target makes proving it seem like an unlikely scenario. Which brings me to an interesting analogy. Say there was an oil panting contest, where people would judge what they felt to be the best oil painting ever laid to canvas. Say there is a frontrunner, a 200 year old painting. We'll call it 'Man on Rocks' for lack of a better title. Now say that 'Man on Rocks' is defeated by something that was just finished this week, titled 'Rocks on Man', but there are allegations that the painter of 'Rocks on Man' used acrylics as a base underneath some parts of his painting. He is vilified for this in the press for ruining the sanctity of the contest, but there is no evidence he used acrylics there or anywhere else in any of his works. Some opinionated blowhard with more money than he knows what to do with buys the painting and paints a big red asterisk on it, defacing what was agreed upon as the best oil painting ever simply because of something that was alleged and believed never proven. Personally, I feel this way on the issue; If Bonds is proven to have intentionally used steroids, then his statistics from any year in which he is known to have done so should not count towards the record book. If he obtained the record without steroids, the ball should not be defaced. If he did not, the ball is meaningless.

Major differences between this and Steve Moore: Moore's hit on Naslund was clean. Ottawa doesn't have any morons like Bertuzzi who 'wouldn't be satsfied' with Downie paying with a fight like Moore did against Cooke. Heatley is the only person on there roster who might be that stupid, and he's never shown himself to be the kind of dirty prick Bertuzzi had been even before the Moore thing.

Bertuzzi was a third liner who was not showing any signs of improving. Chara was the team's 5th defenseman and was in general a disappointment on the Isle. Jokinen was a huge bust for the Islanders. All of those guys performed FAR better after leaving than they ever indicated they were capable of while in the uniform. And they aren't even close to the wost deals ever made, as the Islanders got some decent talent coming back to them. Parrish and Kvasha both led the Islanders in scoring, something Jokinen never did. Chara was behind Eric Cairns on the depth chart before he was traded...Cairns wouldn't even have made Ottawa's lineup during Chara's time there. Spezza and Luongo were the only players traded away who weren't considered busts at that point. Luongo was expendable because the team felt Dipietro was the better looking prospect, which for a team that was often forced to trade players due to salary has definitely held true today; the Isles will be able to hold onto Dipietro for his career, while Florida was forced to trade Luongo due to salary demands, as the Isles would have been. Not to mention, Florida dealt Luongo away for less in return, even though he was worth considerably more than when the Isles dealt him. Yes, on the whole the Isles have been hosed. But none of their multitude of bad deals has ever really been nearly as bad as some of the other deals that have gone down around the league that are mentioned in this thread.

If he doesn't make the team by November he can go back to Russia. So if there's any chance of him improving, he'll be on the roster.

Matthias, like Flieschmann, was extremely expendable. You guys get all over Holland for not taking major risks, but when he makes a great deal and a safe move it's like 'Holland you traded our future superstar and not at all career third liner for crap!!' I shudder to imagine the backlash we'd see if Hudler was actually traded, given the amount of damage he is going to do in the NHL.

Osgood will get in. And yet, the argument that Osgood's team was weaker than Vernon's team or Hasek's team is 100% accurate, which was my point. I didn't say Ozzie wasn't on the best team i nthe league. I said Ozzie had the worst skaters of three Wings Cup teams. That's like me saying 'Last year's Thrashers were the best Thrashers team ever' and you responding with 'The Thrashers did jack squat in the playoffs, how could they be the best team in the league?'

And Downey as the 13th forward will prevent Dats from getting run from behind? The 13th forward should be a person who can play the skill game to a similar degree as the average person he would be replacing, not someone who is on the roster for what he might contribute if he were a regular. Downey's fists won't protect anyone from the press box.

Downey has been playing in the same conditions as the people he's competing against. The Wings have 12 forwards with roster spots locked up...they have all been playing on the top two lines during the preseason. Just because you want Downey to make the team doesn't mean he should be given a better situation than others who are in the same boat of trying to make the team. Grigorenko, Ellis, Hartigan are all playing with AHLers too...and guess what? They have looked better than Downey.

If you look closely, they even have the incorrect white collar on the jersey just like in the movie.

If Downey makes the team because of his fighting abilities, he would have to be in the top 12. He may fight, but his skill level offensively and defensively is not where it needs to be for him to be a regular on the Wings. Which means he would have to be the 13th forward. Guess what? Downey's ability to enforce would be worthless if he's never dressed; teams are going to take cheap shots as they would if he wren't on the roster, because he won't be on the ice. So it comes down to how does his skill compare with the other people competing for the 13th spot, since fighting is an unimportant consideration for that spot? Guess what..Downey doesn't stack up.

That was NOT a great fight.

Ellis and Hartigan are guys who can step in on the third or fourth line and contribute defensively if necessary. Downey ONLY brings fighting, which makes him worthless as a thirteenth forward. Downey isn't a good enough player or a good enough fighter to justify being ahead of Kopecky, Maltby, Samuelsson, or Drake as a regular in the roster. If Downey were as good offensively and defensively as Hartigan or Ellis, he'd have the spot locked up already. Remember that.

I don't understand all the Downey-love. Downey is a 33-year old ******* journeyman who has never been able to hol down an NHL job. He's shown in preseason that he at best won't always 'protect' his teammates, and he simply isn't good enough at hockey to make the team. If Downey stood up for his teammates when it was required, he' probably have a good shot at making the team. But he has shown that he is not what people on this board want him to be....so buh-bye.