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I like my second set of lines. The first two lines have two of our top six forwards, and the third and fourth have one each. Three of our five best defensive forwards are concentrated together on the fourth, and the third line was one of the league's best lines for the short period it was together in the regular season.

My primary point was that Lang was the better OFFENSIVE player. Outscoring someone--especially someone whose best games came as a result of your own hot streak--is pretty much the only factor in that sort of discussion.

Lang hustled pretty well when he scored in game 6. And if Cleary is hustling like crazy, and Lang is lazy, and Lang still outscores Cleary...that only backs up my point.

If Kronwall is healthy, Kronwall will play. Assuming the team keeps winning, though, Kronwall won't play until he's really truly 100% unless someone else is hurt. No reason to risk reinjuring the guy by rushing him back when it's not necessary.

Just a quick note of something I noticed. In Game 2, the Wings had 24 turnovers and 12 takeaways. Lang had 2 takeaways and one giveaway, while the four of Draper, Franzen, Cleary, and Maltby combined for one takeaway and five giveaways.

How does Lang's salary have any bearing on whether he outperformed Cleary offensively? I can understand saying Cleary was better when compared to salary. But Lang was the better player in the regular season...there is no getting around that.

With Bert on the top line: Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Bertuzzi Hudler/Lang/Calder Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson Cleary/Draper/Maltby With Sammy on the top line: Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Samuelsson Franzen/Filppula/Bertuzzi Hudler/Lang/Calder Cleary/Draper/Maltby Honestly I think I prefer the second set better, despite Sammy's presence on #1.

Major deadline acquisitions (by Holland) that didn't come back to Detroit the next year: Dmitri Mironov, 1998 (retired 2001) Wendel Clark, 1999 (retired 2000) Ulf Samuelsson, 1999 (retired 2000) Bill Ranford, 1999 (retired 2000) Major deadline acquisitions (by Holland) that stuck around at least until the next season: Chris Chelios, 1999 Mathieu Schneider, 2003 Robert Lang, 2004 Dmitri Mironov is the only notable player Holland has acquired at the deadline that did not return who played more than one season after leaving. Mironov was the 5th defenseman on the depth chart as a Wing--behind Anders Eriksson. So of the seven notable players Holland has picked up at the deadline, three are still Wings and have played a combined twelve full seasons with Detroit, compared to the total six post-Wings seasons played by deadline acquistions who did not return. The trend seems to point to Bertuzzi and Calder being resigned.

Fedorov left after the Wings pulled the fifth year from an offer they had put on the table while Fedorov had asked them for time to deal with personal issues. Fedorov eventually turned down Detroit's 40m offer over 4 years for Anaheim's 40m over 5 years. Shanny left for 4m for one year. He said it was because he was 'part of the past.' But judging from quotes during the season, he wanted to be the 'new guy' and didn't want all the pressure associated with having been a key player on Cup teams that he was getting in Detroit. I would say that given the logic that leads to Fedorov booing, Shanny deserves it even more--the Wings did nothing to push him away as was done with Fedorov.

Scotty Bowman, Ace Bailey, and Ted Williams would disagree with Cherry regarding head injuries that could have been prevented had they been helmeted. Cherry just thinks helmets and visors are things brought to the game by Europeans and French Canadians, and that real Canadians who play hockey would rather not have one.

To be fair now...Cleary's regular season ups and downs were a direct result of whether the typically streaky Lang was hot or cold. When Lang was hot, Cleary was scoring. When Lang was cold, Cleary was not scoring. You can make arguments both ways, but the fact remains Cleary had a career year while Lang had his worst offensive season since 98-99, and accounting for the 'new' NHL, his worst since 95-96, and Lang still outscored Cleary.

Lang doesn't work any less hard now than he did in 03-04, or in 95-96. Lang works harder than he gets credit for...just because he isn't constantly pumping his legs doesn't mean he isn't working. Wayne Gretzky wasn't constantly pumping his legs...nobody ever said he was lazy. I would say Gretzky looked more like Lang in terms of how he carried himself on ice than Cleary or Zetterberg. Also--it's pretty obvious Lang isn't the player he used to be as far as skill is concerned. So if his performance, accounting for ice time, is similar...wouldn't that suggest he is working HARDER to offset the decline in skill?

Or perhaps you could just redesign the VISOR. Yzerman endured more punishment than comparable players today see without the bruisers. Your point doesn't stand. The reason helmets would come off before a fight is this. The fighters in the NHL aren't stupid. They aren't going to punch a metal cage with their bare fist. And punching the cage with a glove doesn't really do anything. So far, I have yet to hear a reasonable example from anyone why making sure players can still fight is more important than ensuring the safety of said players. So you're saying you don't like a half shield, and because full cages inhibit fighting you would rather see more Yzerman-style injuries? Or those like Rhett Warrener suffered in the first round?

When Lang did play with Kovalev, though, Kovalev outperformed Jagr as often as not. In Washington, Lang was averaging 25 minutes per game...he averaged 16:49 this season. So taking his 30-49-79 in 69 games and adjusting it downwards to meet ice per game and upwards to meet 81 GP...it comes out as 23-39-62, compared to his 19-33-52. Hard to say Lang is playing at a totally different level offensively looking at that. This doesn't even take into account linemates or special teams. Just straight ice time. Given his ice time, Lang is performing this season exactly as could have been expected when we acquired him.

He usually played with Straka and Kovalev in Pittsburgh. In DC, when Lang was leading the league in scoring, Jagr was having one of his worst offensive seasons. Hard to credit Jagr with Lang's big season in Washington when it was one of Jagr's worst. If Jagr has that much impact on his centerman, Nylander should have beaten Crosby for the Art Ross.

Why would you have to redesign the helmet? If the visor curls around the side of the helmet--meaning there is no visible edge from the player's perspective--how does that make peripheral vision worse than wearing the same helmet with no visor? Yzerman took a lot of hard hits. Yzerman had Probert and Kocur, better protection than Gretzky's combo of Semenko and McSorley. Gretzky didn't get hit because he was Gretzky, not because he was protected by enforcers. Mandating full cages would provide protection for all players from the stick work. Sticks are up now, with a lot of players NOT wearing facial protection. If everyone has to wear it, nobody can claim it disadvantages them--if there is any effect on play, everyone would suffer it. Also...if fighting is so integral to the game, mandating facial protection won't kill it off. If it does, fighting wasn't important.

Ask someone who boos Fedorov.

So if Sidney Crosby gets a stick like Homer did, and it ends his career. Pittsburgh can just up and replace him? The players didn't want helmets either.

Sorry, you missed one of the rules... Members who joined since 2004 are not allowed to start topics, think, or breathe.

Berard's injury would not have been prevented by a visor--the stick blade came up from underneath. Ultimately, eye injuries caused by sticks are RARELY the kind that wouldbe prevented by a half shield. Homer and Berard are two classic examples of this kind of injury, and the best either could have gotten from a visor is what they got without one. A full cage is the only kind of mask that would have prevented it.

The two deals I suggested are players that might be able to pull off a deal for marty, and make the same kind of money combined over a similar period. Trading Bell/McLaren for St. Louis won't take money away from resigning Thornton, Marleau, or Cheechoo.

Hmm... Lidstrom/Chelios 1999-present Bourque/Blake 2001 Chelios/Wilson 1991 Just to name a few.

Osgood was a rookie. Also, Osgood didn't start the series...Bob Essensa spotted the Sharks the series lead--Osgood went 3-2 vs the Sharks and the Wings likely would have come out victorious had they started their best netminder right away. It's one glaring example of Bowman's veteran bias hurting the team.

San Jose has two divisional rivals within 500 miles. Same for Detroit.

Statistics prove you wrong. Wings' playoff series records since 1994 vs various time zones, through the end of round one this year. Eastern: 3-1 Central: 7-0 Mountain: 6-5 Pacific: 5-3 That's a pretty huge disconnect in winning percentages between Central/Eastern and Mountain/Pacific. Made even greater by the fact the one loss to an Eastern team was in the Cup finals. as opposed to three first-round losses to Pacific, as well as a first round loss and three second round losses to Mountain teams. It's pretty clear--if the Wings lose in the playoffs the past ten or fifteen years, travel has likely been a factor.