eva unit zero

Cup wins? Holland has two and Burke has none.

Which do you want, grit or a goon? You can't have both...

This is awesome for those of us who have supported Holland. People on here have bashed Holland as a horrible GM for years while praising Burke as a genius...yet Holland gets two guys Burke wanted for perfectly reasonable deals in a year when prices were crazy. Just awesome.

The only guy you have labeled correctly into one of those two categories is Maltby.

The punch knocked Moore out. It's pretty obvious on the replay that Moore is UNCONSCIOUS after he ins punched by Bertuzzi. The punch was not what broke his neck, though. That was when Bertuzzi grabbed Moore by the back of the head and drove him, headfirst, into the ice. The way Moore's head twists on impact is pretty conclusive as to the 'moment'. As far as the argument 'Moore knew it was coming' Moore was watching the play and was skating up ice, away from Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi grabbed him, yanked him backwards, and proceeded to assault him. You know, just FTR. Using your logic, there would be no sexual predators list in any state...you know...privacy and all. Just to illustrate how flawed your thinking is.

There are two possible outcomes. We keep winning, maybe win the conference and Z comes back for the playoffs. We don't keep winning, lose the division, fall potentially as low as the 5th or 6th seed, Z comes back and we win again, and Z wins the Hart. With Z healthy for the playoffs either way, and the extremely close races for the 5th seed and for the NW division title, where we finish might not matter as much as how other teams end their season as far as who we end up playing. Z's injury likely will have no bearing on the Wings' playoff chances, but could have a huge impact on the regular season standings.

Liv won't be a top notch goalie. That said...Giguere's best seasons have come on a very good defensive team. Seasons his team has not been as good defensively, his numbers have suffered. Osgood had one of his best seasons on a terrible Blues team, and another good year on a terrible Islanders team. Kiprusoff was horrific in San Jose, and during his time in Calgary they have had one of the league's best defensive teams...so I'm not really sure where you're going with that. Fernandez is the only one you seem to have labeled correctly, and then only because he has never been on a bad defensive team.

The total salary for 07-08 listed there is close to what is listed at RWC. nhlnumbers doesn't have 'available cap' posted for next season, so I'm not sure how they can't have taken it into consideration.

http://www.redwingscentral.com/features/orgchart.html Assuming this season's cap of 44m, the Wings have just over 20m free. As I said in my post, 47m is the number I have heard tossed around. That makes it just over 23m free. I expect Hasek to retire. If not, there's still 1.3m left (minus bonuses) to sign him on top of the 733k currently slated for the backup. If Howard is supposed to be our future star goaltender, Liv must be pretty good. Liv has played almost as well as Howard in Grand Rapids despite it being his first season in North America--typically European goaltenders have some trouble adjusting in their first year over. If Howard looks to need more time in the AHL, Liv will be the backup next season. They don't want to rush Howard, and Liv is more mature and ready to take on NHL pressure simply from being and older and more experienced goaltender. And I thought I said I was trying to avoid this discussion? LOL

Currently signed for 07-08: Zetterberg 2.65m Holmstrom 2.25m Draper 2.128m Samuelsson 1.2m Franzen 942k Filppula 710k Cleary 663k Lidstrom 7.6m Kronwall 3m Lilja 1m Lebda 650k Osgood 850k That leaves about 20.35m to sign six forwards, three defensemen, a goalie, and maybe one more skater if the cap doesn't go up. The number being tossed about as the likely cap figure next year is 47m, so we'll assume that we have 23.35m in cap space. Hudler and Kopecky will likely be resigned for around 600k each. Markov returns for ~2.75m. Howard makes 733k, assume for argument Liv signs a comparable deal (to avoid the Howard vs Liv posts) Figure Datsyuk signs for about 5.5m. Assume Chelios resigns for another 850k. Assume we get a 13th forward to be named later for 500k. This cuts our available cap space down to about 11.8m, which needs to be used at minimum for two more forwards and one more defensemen. Bertuzzi, Calder, Lang, Schneider are notable UFAs I haven't addressed. As we're assuming Datsyuk signs, that means Lang is definitely gone. The only chance he had to stay around was Datsyuk hitting the market or Hudler/Filppula being traded. Schneider could probably be resigned for about 3m. Bertuzzi could probably be resigned for about 5.5m if he makes a difference in the playoffs. If he blows ass, he's likely gone. Calder could probably be resigned for about 2m. We'll assume, for the sake of discussion, that this year's team does well enough in the postseason. That totals up to 10.5m. Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom--Best line in hockey. What we have now. Hudler/Filppula/Bertuzzi--Should be a very effective line--it's constructed just like line 1. Franzen/Draper/Cleary--Quick, physical checking line that has scoring ability. Calder/Kopecky/Samuelsson--Physical fourth line that can score and play D. Lidstrom/Markov--What we have now. Schneider/Kronwall--What we have now. Lebda/Chelios--What we have now. Lilja--What we have now. Osgood--Proven starter who has won it all. Howard/Liv--Solid young goalie capable of stepping in if needed. No, this roster won't see the splash at the deadline. But if, as was assumed for discussion, this year's team goes deep...then no splash will likely be needed to contend again next year.

The only retired numbers you'll find in Toronto are Bill Barilko and Ace Bailey.

Here's one major difference; Naslund played the next game between the Avs and Canucks after bein downed by a legal hit. Draper's face was shattered by a blatant cheap shot and had to be wired back together. He couldn't do anything for six months.

Moore's hit on Naslund was clean. No penalty, no suspension, no fine. Naslund was unlucky. Also, Moore fought Cooke earlier in the game Bertuzzi attacked him in. THAT should have been the end of it. Bertuzzi's actions were not warranted as policing...Moore had already fought two guys in two different games because he CLEANLY hit Naslund. As for the 'inclination' Moore was likely hoping to AVOID a physical confrontation with Bertuzzi, who is much bigger and stronger.

None of those guys is soft. None of them will crumple into a ball and stop playing the moment physical force is applied. Gritty doesn't mean a guy like Kasparaitis or Blake who cares more about laying big hits than about doing his job. Gritty means a guy who will do his job even if the game gets physical. And FTR...I would take 20 guys who can take a hit and keep playing but don't hit over 20 guys who do hit but can't take a hit. Grit is, ultimately, about being able to impose your will on the play regardless of outside influences. All of the guys I listed have that capability. Yes, most of them are not bangers. Still gritty.

So what about Hainsworth? Are his shutouts invalid because he played in the lowest scoring era in NHL history? How about Sawchuk? Are his shutouts worth less than Roy's because Roy played in the 80s? Which is precisely why it cannot be threatened! No record that is based entirely on performance and reliant on whether defensive or offensive hockey is played is untouchable. Glenn Hall has an untouchable record (consecutive games played) while Gretzky, who holds over 60 records and many by a large gap, does not hold one that could be considered untouchable.

"Gritty" players on the Wings' roster: Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Cleary, Calder, Bertuzzi, Draper, Maltby, Franzen, Lidstrom, Markov, Kronwall, Schneider, Chelios, Hudler, Lebda Now, only a couple of those guys could be considered fighters...but none of those guys can be considered "soft" unless your requirement for grit is the player must fight...which has no bearing on the playoffs.

Calder for Williams: A+ Giving up an undersized finesse forward who doesn't have the talent or youth of several others we have to get a gritty winger with better offensive talent. Excellent trade. Bertuzzi for Matthias+picks: A+ Matthias was one of about a dozen skilled center prospects we have in the system, and he was far from a standout in that group. I'm more concerned about the picks involved that could potentially have been solid prospects, but with this upcoming draft supposed to be 'weak' I am less concerned about that. If Bertuzzi is even 50% of his 2003 self, and stays away from the jackassery, this is the trade of the year.

I would rather scratch Maltby than Hudler. Hudler is a natural scorer who, despite his size, can play in traffic. Maltby has become redundant on this team...his decline combined with the rise of guys like Franzen, Cleary, Zetterberg has put him firmly in the 'spare part' category. Put Hudler with Lang and Bertuzzi, Calder with Flip and Sammy, and Cleary and Franzen with Draper. Maltby can be the best (and most expensive) 13th forward in the NHL.

20 goals and 44 points in 63 games from the third line? That would be just fine...Probert only had one better offensive season, and that was playing on the first line in 1987-88.

The only goalie record that ever was in the 'cannot be threatened' range is owned by Glenn Hall.

Kronwall's hit on Lupul was a clean, unpenalized hit that could be described as borderline because he left his feet. It was virtually identical to the hit thrown by Dallas Drake on Boyd Devereaux that almost ended The Boyd's career. What Bertuzzi did was by no stretch of the imagination 'part of hockey' or a 'borderline' play. It was one ofthre dirtiest shots the NHL has EVER seen.

Can you think of a better checking line than Franzen/Draper/Cleary? You usually don't see three very good defensive forwards on a line together. Usually it's one or two skilled defensive guys and a banger (or two) who is average to above average defensively.

How about Johan Franzen and Kirk Maltby?

Here is what I would do with the lines: Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom--Known commodity. Best line in hockey. Hudler/Lang/Bertuzzi--Lang is a big strong, skilled playmaker. Hudler is a bona fide sniper and Bertuzzi is a big strong guy who can score. Hudler would not get pushed around and would be playing with skilled teammates=Hudler scores many goals. Calder/Filppula/Samuelsson--Gritty scoring winger in Calder with skilled two-way center in Flip and defensively solid scoring winger in Sammy. Franzen/Draper/Cleary--Best checking line in the league.

More than I would have liked to have given up for Bertuzzi, but considering prices around the league and the rumored deals involving Bert, not bad at all. Williams, Matthias, and one or two picks for Bertuzzi and Calder? At worst, we give up a decent third-line prospect and a pick for a couple of busts. At best, we get two gritty, scoring wingers for cheap. Don't like Bertuzzi, but if he's healthy and doesn't play like a jackass and try to end more careers, it's a good deal. Also....this trade has the potential to revitalize the Wings/Avs rivalry. And anyone notice how a lot of old Avs are now in the Central?