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With Williams' ice time, and the same per-minute production rate, Murray would have about 22 goals and 14 assists for 36 points in 60 games, which would place ahead of anyone not on the first PP unit. It would also mean he was on pace for 30 goals.

No Av player jumped on Bertuzzi until Bert had already hit the ice. And regardless of whether Bertuzzi intended to drive Moore into the ice...Bertuzzi falling on Moore is a direct result of Bertuzzi's suckerpunch knocking Moore out. Therefore Bertuzzi is responsible for it. No suckerpunch, no fall, and no broken neck. Regardless of when the broken neck happens, if Bertuzzi doesn't cross the line and brutally assault Moore by punching him in the back of the head HARD ENOUGH TO KNOCK HIM OUT INSTANTLY, then Moore is still playing today and Bertuzzi is still a Canuck. That's what it all comes down to. Oh, and the fact that Bertuzzi threatened to end Moore's career and then followed up on that threat. It is significantly different from Samuelsson on Neely, where Samuelsson laid that same hit every almost night without ruining careers. If yo ucan show me an instance where someone else was uninjured after Bertuzzi punched them in the back of the head hard enough to knock them out, then I'll buy the argument that he's not 100% responsible for the result.

Who would you expect the opposition to put out against Detroit's fourth line? If you assume that Hudler's line plays 8 minutes, break it down a bit; The top four defensemen on a team usually play about 90 minutes. That means about 45 minutes during the game when one of the top four is on the ice. Assume the first line plays 21 minutes, the second line 18, the third line 13, and the fourth line 8. That means, if you cut the time off at the top, that top-four defensemen should play the first line and second lines all the time, and 6 minutes against the third line. That would suggest that the fourth line should realistically NEVER see top-four defensemen. That Hudler has scored at least three of nine goals against such types would be a POSITIVE for him, given how little he plays them.

Except what Bert did was unusual for the following reasons: Moore's hit on Naslund was clean. No penalty, no suspension. Clean hit that happened to result in injury. Bertuzzi and other Canucks repeatedly issued threats against Moore well in advance of the game in which they were carried out. Moore fought Matt Cooke earlier in that game, and held his own. Normally, this would be the point at which it would be 'done' in most situations. Moore hit Naslund, and he paid the price of having to fight Cooke. Bertuzzi wasn't happy with this outcome. He wanted Moore to pay by being injured. So when on the ice together, Bertuzzi grabbed Moore by the back of the jersey and followed him around the ice, totally ignoring the play. When Moore refused t ofight Bertuzzi--having already fought Cooke--Bertuzzi sucker punched Moore in the back fo the head, knocking him out instantly. Bertuzzi proceeded to ride Moore's head into the ice, breaking his neck. Even without the injury, that situation is an extremely rare case.

Hudler is an NHLer who is showing high level natural scoring ability in the NHL. At this age, Datsyuk was a 9 goal, 26 point scorer in the Russian league. Hudler had 6 points in 11 games in Russia as an 18 year old...Datsyuk had 4 points in 18 games in the same league at the same age, and it was the first year in Russian Elite league for each. Hudler had already been established as a star since age 15 in Czech league, which is considered not far below Russian league. Dats had never played at that level before. When Hudler was a top player in the AHL at age 21, Dats was a 4 point player in 15 games in Russia. When Hudler scored 3 points on the fourth line in the NHL in 12 games, Dats was a mediocre player in second-tier Russia. Face it...Hudler has CONSISTENTLY been superior at all levels and in all leagues. His developmental rate has at the very least matched, and more likely exceeded Datsyuk's. Oh, and on the subject of size: Datsyuk was 180 lbs in 01-02...he is now listed at 202. Hudler is listed at 180, and is a year younger than Dats was in 01-02. It's universally agreed the Wings need a scoring winger. Hudler has shown he can be that scoring winger at the NHL level. He is easily the best goal scorer of all the prospects and rookies in the system. Both would be overpayment.

Hudler is better than Dats was at the same age. Hudler is also several years younger. For all any of us know, Hudler could turn out better than Zetterberg.

Hudler has been playing around 8 minutes a night with linemates who aren't exactly offensively gited. On a scoring line--say, with Lang and Cleary--and with top-six ice time, Hoodlum would do major damage. Hudler has 9 goals and 2 assists for 11 points. The guys who have been his primary linemates--Filppula, Kopecky, Norton, Ellis, Langfeld--combine for 6 goals and 6 assists for 12 points. If you assume rather than carrying about 50% of the points and 60% of the goals from his line, he would carry about 30% of each on a scoring line..that still means that in Williams' spot he would have a stat line of 15-15-30, which would put him 5th in goals and 8th in points on the team. If you assume his +/- also receives the 172% increase, that's an increase of +12 to +19, which would be fourth on the team and third among forwards, behind only Dats and Z. Plus, if you read the first post, it says Hudler is required 'in any trade' not 'as the sole player involved' meaning any PACKAGE of players must INCLUDE Hudler.

I'll rephrase; Left Winger said Abdelkader now is better than Hudler was at the same point, and implied that would continue to be true. It has been shown over and over that Hudler has consistently been better than Datsyuk at comparable points in their careers. Assuming LW's logic of 'continue to be true' that must mean Hudler WILL be better in the next six years than Datsyuk was over the past few years. So, by the transitive rule, Abdelkader would be a physical player whose overall ability would be SIGNIFICANTLY greater than Datsyuk in his prime. Shanahan was the most obvious choice that fit this description. Holland has been criticized ruthlessly by those who felt he should have drafted a certain potential power forward instead of Abdelkader. So that means that either the criticism is way off base and Holland drafted a top PF prospect in Abdelkader, OR that LW's assessment of Hudler's ability is quite distant from reality.

Wow, then our future really IS bright...if you consider the fact that Hudler has been better than Datsyuk at every stage of their respective careers. If Abdelkader>Hudler at the same stage, that means Abdelkader is going to be the next Shanahan. Which means that anyone who ever bashed Holland about drafting him instead of a power forward needs to stick their head in the sand right now.

Ok, make it Willy and a pick. Whatever. Murray is a big strong guy who can score and play in the corners. He's not a crazy hitter, but he uses his strength to score. Oh, and Murray has 20-22-42 in 87 games in the playoffs, which is pretty similar to Bertuzzi's 6-8-14 in 24 games. Murray, however, has 8-9-17 in 31 games since the 2001 playoffs, which was Bertuzzi's first appearance. So basically, we can get a guy who is a better person, big, strong, better playoff player than Bertuzzi, and quite possibly without giving up a top prospect, high pick, or core player. Sounding better and better every minute.

No. [/font] I would rather keep Hudler ,plus: For what Florida is asking, we could get better than Bertuzzi. I personally would love to see them pick up Glen Murray for perhaps a Meech and a mid-round pick.

Just as a note... Zetterberg has scored 17 goals and 26 assists for 43 points in 26 games since Dec 23rd. That would be 39 goals (league leading) and 60 assists (second in the league) for 99 points (league leading) if he had scored at that pace over the 60 games they have played so far. AND he's a Selke contender. Just sick.

His scoring since December 23rd is 17 goals and 43 points in 26 games, which is the points-per-game pace of Crosby this season, and notably better in the goals department. THAT is how good Hank has been since Dec 23rd...best in the league at both ends.

Zetterberg isn't a FUTURE franchise player...he already IS a franchise player.

Hudler on Lang's wing? Haven't I been pushing that combination since oh I don't know last May? I don't care if neither Hudler nor Lang is quick...they have tons of skill and would make it work. Hudler still scores more than J-Willy with no top end speed and no ice time, and a center who is less offensively talented than himself. Imagine what he'd do with real ice time on Lang's line in Williams' spot.

Assuming current lines stay together, and traded guys fill in Bertuzzi/Horton/Cleary would be the second line. Not bad, but I think we overpay considerably to get it. Take Bertuzzi out, take Lang and Hudler out...you get Horton for Williams, Meech, and a couple picks. Not an unreasonable deal, and certainly more beneficial to Detroit than the initial suggestion.

Winnipeg failed to support a team once. Raleigh is considered a very small market, and guess what? It's TWICE the size of Winnipeg. Columbus, another 'small' market is even larger. Pittsburgh is four times as big, and still struggles. The only cities in the NHL with population bases as small as Winnipeg? Edmonton and Nashville. One of those cities came together to save their team from being moved after suffering severe financial woes. Nashville is the other.

And the first was an elbow.

And yet, he re-signed for less than many guys who are not as good as him pulled in that summer. That's the criteria always paraded as 'the ultimate in loyalty' on this board--taking less to stay in Detroit.

Z can get 65 points in his next 64 games, though. That would draw him even with Pavel in games and points.

And the better of which (Toskala) has comparable GAA and sv.pct. to Ozzie. Raycroft's 2.91 GAA and .898 sv pct. is enticing, though, especially considering that it's a huge improvement over what he did last season.

Detroit watched the Wings win the President's trophy and go to the finals when they hit the 40 year mark. Toronto will get to watch Blue Jays spring training.

Schneider is a defensive liability...so you want Souray????? That's like trading Lang because he's slow, and getting Jason Allison to replace him!!! You DO realize Souray wouldn't get nearly the points in Detroit he does in Montreal, right? Souray is the number one PP threat and offensive d-man in Montreal. He wouldn't take that tile from Lidstrom...he'd fit in right where Schneider does and likely would not do as well. Their PG is almost identical, and that's with Schneider as Detroit's number TWO guy. Schneider is better than Souray at both ends of the ice...we'd effectively be saying Lang isn't worth a second rounder, but we'll swap Schneider for Souray to make up the difference?

And what, Ozzie is traded? You do realize Osgood has another year on his contract?

Modano twice hit 93 points and even hit 50 goals once. But his 99-00 season was probably his best--ranked 8th in goals (38) and points (81), the best he ever did in either category as compared to the league. So yes, his scoring is slightly inflated by his early seasons and his career highs certainly are. Consider that in the last season before the lockout, Modano scored a paltry 44 points, before scoring 77 in the first season after the lockout. He is on pace for about 55 over a full 82 games this season, easily his worst year not including 03-04. Zetterberg would have to average about 85 points per 82 games over 937 games to tie Modano--which is actually lower than his post-lockout average.