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Huh? By mentioning my predictions on Kopecky's future (which were based both on what I had seen and on what professional scouts thought) when I said that Kopecky deserved credit for reaching that level, despite the high level of doubt cast upon him by Wings fans, I become the new mindfly? I don't generally go around saying the Wings are going to lose or players are horrible overall or at certain things - in any unreasonable fashion, that is. I certainly have stated that players or the team have been/are playing badly, just as everyone else here has.

It used to be illegal to protect goalies, mainly because of the 1989 Clint Malarchuk incident. When the rule was implemented in 1991, you couldn't have body, skate, or even STICK in the crease without getting a goal called back. It's one of the things that cut the 90s short of goals, caused stoppages, etc.. Hence the controversy over the 1999 Cup-winning goal; different interpretations of the rule produce different results. But that led to a loosening of the rule to allow for more referee discretion. Which speeds up play, increases scoring, etc.

Flip and Hudler have barely played with Datsyuk; Hudler has one point in one game with Datsyuk. Small sample size or not, it's definitely not "not working". Everyone talks about Hudler needing to earn his ice time, but wants to put Brunnstrom, Nyquist, Tatar, etc. right on the top line. Don't these guys have to earn theirs? And before you say "doing well in Grand Rapids" none of them is even remotely close to what Hudler did in Grand Rapids. So if what they are doing in Grand Rapids earns a tryout on the top line, Hudler has earned a full-time, locked-in spot. Put Brunnstrom with Emmerton and Miller. He's not coming in as anything other than a warm body; if he plays well he gets to stay.

What's in the box? NOTHING! ABSORUTRY NOTHING! STUPID! STUPID!

Last season Abby spent most of the year playing on a different line from Helm; Helm's line was often put up against offensive talent while Abby's wasn't. Abby was also given the chance to play second line center between Franzen and Bertuzzi.

He should; Eaves is out because of his back. Hopefully he doesn't look like a fool again. Bert's illness is a very rare one. It's called "Lazyandsuckitis". Some people manage to fight through it and not let it affect them as much as it could, but hard work is the only cure. I like: Filppula/Datsyuk/Hudler Franzen/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Abdelkader/Helm/Cleary Brunnstrom/Emmerton/Miller Switch Emmerton and Abdelkader if you like.

No, Helm isn't great at them. Neither are great on offense. But Helm is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Abby defensively. Both in what their best performance to date has been, as well as their performance this season. I brought up Abby's breakaway as an example showing that even when he does create a chance, the likelihood that he will score is not very high compared to other players on the Wings' roster.

This is where ice time and linemates become a factor. Helm creates most of the chances on that line; the other night against Minnesota Abdelkader being out of position turned a sure goal into a non-chance. He got a breakaway shortly after, but he managed to give Harding no trouble. Emmerton has only played two games since the Washington debacle, and has looked decent. He was one of the team's better forwards in the first 5 games. Abdelkader has been getting insane amounts of ice time; he's played first-line ice time some games. Yet he only has two points. Emmerton has been more of an offensive catalyst; he just doesn't play as much. I think a lot of people are giving Abs credit for success caused by Helm. People look at the Abs/Helm/Bert line and think "I remember that line, they were noticeable, I rmember seeing them on the ice! They must have made a difference!" No, they just played all the ******* time. More at ES than Filppula/Franzen/Hudler did, even though Flip/Mule/Huds posted 17 points in 4 games. Abdelkader and Emmerton are about right where I rated them.

If Hudler were 6-10, 216, and playing with Gretzky and Howe in 1985... I think he'd get closer to 150 or 175. Think about it for a second; he would be like Lindros or Neely; plowing through defenses with ease. And like Kevin Stevens, who was a very good player who had his numbers radically infated by playing with Mario Lemieux.

Just because you (allegedly) have friends who are Asian doesn't make you not racist. You listed a few things; outside of his appearance it was all either simply not liking the player or not liking the thread BECAUSE of the player. The roster limit is 23. After sending down Brunnstrom, the Wings were at 22, hence Nyquist. Nyquist was sent down, and Smith was subsequently brought up.

That's absolutely a good goal. There is not even a question. The only possible argument that can me made is Connolly's collision with the net temporarily knocked the net off. However, as we all know, the net can be knocked off and play can continue so long as it doesn't interfere with the play (ref's discretion); which means that the only thing necessary for the war room to review was whether the net was in position. Which it appears to have been.

People look different at a player when their career high is 21 points than when it is 42? Guarantee you Kopecky is lucky to get half of his current deal if he has the same year in 2010-11 that he did in 2009-10.

Did he actually make a shooting motion with the stick, in terms of pushing the puck in any way? If so, it doesn't matter if he was kicking the puck all the way down the ice. The only way it wouldn't count is if his stick didn't move and he intentionally kicked it so that it deflected in off of his stick. Or if he were impeding the goaltender, which from your description of his positioning seems pretty unlikely.

I'm betting on two goals each from Hudler and Helm.

Maybe on your scale. Not on mine, if you actually read my post. Hudler and Z were rated as about even; Z has been invisible for much of the season to-date, and for the first few games Hudler was absolutely stellar. Both have had plenty of bad games, so ultimately it comes down to the fact that Z has generally been less of an offensive presence despite playing so much more. Eaves and Abby were rated as about even, because Emmerton has generally looked pretty darn good but hasn't played a lot while Abby and Eaves played more per game but have been much more up or down. Abdelkader will either look like total crap, or have a strong game where he's out banging, creating space, an playing solid D. Emmerton has, almost every night he's played, been a solid defensive presence and generally reliable. Both have been sub-par on face-offs, so that's not something you can hit either on in a comparison. I don't expect these ratings to hold through the 25-game mark... if they do I will NOT be a happy camper.

Hmm. Hudler was one of the Wings' three best forwards through four games. He's pointless in six (seven for the team) and is still second on the team in even strength scoring behind Datsyuk. When the team was slaughtered by Washington, Hudler was demoted in time and line. "Second line" ice time is generally about 14-15 minutes at even strength. Hudler rarely got more than 10 or 11. He plays around 2 minutes PP, but he plays at the point in a formation neither he nor the team are familiar with. If he played along the low boards where he has had great PP success in the past, the story would be significantly different. The chances of Hudler's production increasing by 67% in that scenario are pretty slim. But Hudler played 10:37 per game ES with Filppula and Samuelsson, scoring 29 ES points. Are you going to tell me that if you increase his time by 40-50% and give him better linemates, he doesn't increase his output? He posted 29 points on what was effectively a second #1 PP unit; give him a spot on the #1 unit as well as that 14-15 minutes in the top six at ES, and you think he won't get 70 points? Do you think it's better to have Bertuzzi and Abdelkader playing those minutes? Abs played more at ES against Calgary than Flip, Hudler, Helm, Homer, Emmerton, and Miller. Bertuzzi was 5th in ES with 14+ minutes and Cleary was 4th with 15+ minutes. Do you think Hudler should be outside of the top six in favor of those guys? I sure as hell don't. If you increase Hudler's ES production over his past two seasons (averaged, total 24-30-54 in 155) by 45% (from his actual ESTOI to standard second-liner ESTOI) while using his straight combined PP total (9-31-40), and pro-rate to the 82 games he played in 2008-09. That makes for 18g-23a-41pt at ES and 7g-24a-31pt on the PP, a total of 25g-47a-72pt. That's obviously just a projection, but I think it's fair given the assumed increase in linemate quality and ice time. Small sample sizes (such as the "infamous" Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary line) have shown that Hudler's production be higher with highly talented linemates, even though those lines will see tougher defense. Bernie Nicholls scored 70 goals and 150 points playing on Wayne Gretzky's right side. He was a good player, but would never have come close if not for that. Playing with better players makes for better results. Even Gretzky saw the benefit; if he didn't have Coffey and Kurri, he wouldn't have scored at the level he did. Gretzky, Coffey, and Kurri probably made up three of the top five offensive players in the world in the mid-80s. None of them post those numbers if they are alone on a weak team. Messier never scores 50 without Gretzky (in fact, he only scored 50 playing as Gretzky's LW) and Brett Hull isn't more than a 50 goal scorer without Adam Oates; without a top playmaker he doesn't even reach that mark. Superstars will produce huge numbers on their own, but if you take a highly skilled player and give him the opportunity to play with other highly skilled players, he will be able to produce those numbers as well. A superstar will post better numbers playing with more highly skilled linemates. You can review these things by looking at players such as Martin Straka, Ilya Kovalchuk, Glen Murray, Marc Savard, Martin Lapointe, and many more. Obviously the true stars make their teammates better. But it's absolutely true that a player, ANY player, can have his production increased by playing more/with better players. Corey Perry last season is a huge example of this. His production was largely inflated by playing with Ryan Getzlaf, yet Perry and his 51 goals won the Hart. It was 1991 Brett Hull overall; Oates was the better and more valuable player yet Hull received the recognition.

And Tim Thomas had been playing his career in the ECHL and Finland. Hudler posted a 57 point season and led the league in points-per-minute, playing 12 minutes per game on the third line. Suggesting it's impossible for him to hit 80 points if given a TRUE top-six opportunity with linemates equal to or better than what he had in 08-09 is ludicrous, at minimum. Hudler would also produce more scoring opportunities if Babcock would use him at forward on the PP. He gets flak for not having taken shots, yet he's back at the point on the PP, or not even on the ice. He has succeeded a great deal when he's down low; give him that spot and see what happens.

1) Assume Hudler would hit exactly 80 points on a Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary line with all healthy and playing like they did last season. 2) Diminish Datsyuk's offensive preformance by 20%. Do you not think that would affect Hudler's numbers, even if he were playing just as well? If you don't, you never get to use the argument "player X only plays well with player Y" because you clearly don't believe it in that case. I did not say Hudler is playing well enough to hit 80 points; he's clearly not. But I was responding to an attack on my previous statements about his abilities, which he has shown many times. Oddly enough, people never seem to get up in arms about hot stretches by Filppula or Franzen used for their "per-game" data. Wonder why.

I find it amusing that the title of the thread is "unbiased" when the ratings clearly are different for different levels of players. Case in point: Emmerton gets an A, Datsyuk gets a B? Emmerton has been good on most nights he's played, but he has NOT outplayed Datsyuk. With that said: I rated players along this scale: For skaters, A+ means a star player. A means a #1 forward or defenseman. B means a #4 forward or #2/3 defenseman C means a #7 forward or #4/5 defenseman D means a #10 forward or # 6 defenseman F means a spare player or AHLer. For goalies, A+ means a star player A means a top end #1 goalie C means a top end backup F means a third stringer/AHLer You can figure out the pluses and minuses (and the missing letters on the goalie scale) Datsyuk A- Filppula B+ Helm B Franzen B- Zetterberg C+ Holmstrom C+ Hudler C+ Emmerton C Abdelkader C- Eaves C- Miller C- Cleary D Bertuzzi D- Brunnstrom Inc. Nyquist Inc. Mursak Inc. Lidstrom A+ White B Kronwall B Kindl B- Ericsson C Stuart D Commodore Inc. Howard B Conklin F That's how I would grade them. Going forward I expect significant improvement from Cleary and Zetterberg in particular (I expect a B- and an A+, respectively), as both have been hindered by injury. I think Hudler also can improve upon his C+ (B- expected, would love to see a B+ or an A-), and Homer has looked better in the past couple games than most of the team so I wouldn't be shocked to see his grade go up. Let's check back at the halfway mark! EDIT: Based on my grades (top to bottom) here are some lines, assuming Helm (not a scoring center) stays in the bottom six, and the 4th line gets a center, as well as that Homer and Hudler don't play on the same line. Filppula/Datsyuk/Hudler Average grade: B (Good 2nd line) Franzen/Zetterberg/Holmstrom Average grade: C+ (Bad 2nd line) Emmerton/Helm/Eaves Average grade: C (Good 3rd line) Cleary/Abdelkader/Miller Average grade: D+ (Bad 3rd line) Not pretty, is it? At the bottom it's nice... at the top, not so much. On defense it would work like this: Lidstrom/White Average grade: A- (Average 1st pairing) Kronwall/Kindl Average grade: B (Good 2nd pairing) Ericsson/Stuart Average grade: C- (Average 3rd pairing) Of course this is all simply based on individual grades; no idea how chemistry would affect performance; see Filppula/Franzen/Hudler for the four games they were together (17 points) vs. the seven games they have been apart (1 point)

Because Nyquist is one of the 30 most offensively talented forwards in the world right now. Yeah, that's not the case. Hudler could score 80+ points if scoring went back up to its levels from say 2009 (10% higher than last year) and he were given a top-six role and top-six ice time. Right now he gets third line ice time, playing occasionally on a top-two line with underachieving forwards. The only time his linemates have succeeded to any degree were when he was with Franzen and Filppula; they scored their only points of the season playing with Hudler. As of 2005, nobody thought journeyman minor-league goalie Tim Thomas would be a starter in the NHL. Now he has two Vezinas, a Conn Smythe, and some are arguing him as a HHOF candidate and one of the best goalies ever.

I would get rid of Franzen before Cleary and Hudler. He has more value in a trade, he's the oldest, he's likely to retire within a few years due to injury, and he's lazy. He could be a traded for mid to late 20s top-six forward to serve as the core of the team going forward along with Flip and Huds, as Dats and Z are clearly aging and we all know they won't keep it up forever while Flip and Huds should be just entering their primes. Having a bunch of solid 18-20 year old prospects who might become top-sixers doesn't do any good for the next five years because it'll be like Flip or Hudler in 2007; maybe you'll get some decent secondary scoring on the PP, but you won't be seeing those guys as core players for years. People think Nyquist is going to step in this year or next and score 70 points; that is not happening.

Hudler wasn't on the cap in 2009-10; the Wings were still spent right up to the cap. Maybe the Wings could have cut Flip loose and kept Hossa and signed two minimum wagers instead of Bert and Williams, but that wasn't happening. It was ultimately Franzen or Hossa.

Hasek didn't put the Wings over the top. Out of the Wings' top 12 forwards and 6 defensemen in games played from 2001 for 2002: Lapointe, Kozlov, Verbeek, Brown, Gilchrist, Ward, Murphy, Gill. Into the Wings top 12/6 for 2002: Hull, Robitaille, Datsyuk, Larionov, Yzerman, Chelios, Duchesne, Olausson. Something tells me that if you don't make the Hasek deal, and put Devereaux's name on that first list instead, the Wings still win the Cup in 2002. Because that's a pretty significant difference in team quality. An increase of four or five HHOFers who, while not in their primes, were still playing well? That's significant. Datsyuk from any point in his career is not as good as Fedorov at his best or Yzerman at his best. Yzerman at his best was the best player in the league DURING GRETZKY AND LEMIEUX'S PRIMES. The fact that you think Datsyuk is/was better defensively than Fedorov shows that you really have never watched Fedorov. And what exactly do you qualify as dynamic offense? Dangles? The ability to carry an offense on your back? Yzerman did all of that, and was a faster skater than Datsyuk. Dominik Hasek was great in his prime, but he wasn't even the best goalie in the past 10-15 years to play for the Wings in terms of a given season with the Wings. Osgood had multiple seasons that were much better than Hasek's 2001-02 season. Beyond that, there's Terry Sawchuk, Glenn Hall, and Roger Crozier as options for great Wings goalies. You can even take Mike Vernon's 1995 season as well. Hasek has a great argument as the best goalie of all-time. But his greatness was in Buffalo; he wasn't even a Vezina contender in Detroit.