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When "then" is two seasons ago and Kopitar has not improved past the defensive skill of Hudler "then", it would either take regression by Hudler for Kopitar to be better, or a sudden leap in defensive skill.

Perhaps I understated Kopitar's defensive abilities. But Hudler is still the better defensive player. He was improving his defense consistently while with the Wings, and was better defensively than Kopitar then. There's no reason to suspect that Kopitar suddenly leaped past Hudler in that aspect.

Hudler could play on the PK unit for LA. Perhaps he doesn't have Bertuzzi's size or Helm's speed. But seriously, those things do NOT make him a poor defensive player. Just as being small doesn't make him soft. Furthermore, when did I say Kopitar was bad defensively? I said some of the guys I mentioned were about average, some were downright atrocious. Anze was the #3 PK forward on the 20th best PK team in the league. If you don't think Hudler could play on the second PK unit, you haven't seen HUDLER play very often. I'm just gonna toss out a few names of some guys who play on PK units who Hudler would be as good or better options than: Paul Stastny, Cody McLeod, Rick Nash, Antoine Vermette, Patrick O'Sullivan, Scott Gomez, Brian Gionta. That's just a quick list of guys who are in their teams' top four PK forwards who Hudler would be a better PK option than IMO. The attitude on this board is basically "Hudler isn't anywhere near as good as Datsyuk or Zetterberg defensively, and he's nowhere near what Fedorov or Yzerman did either. He's obviously piss poor and a defensive liability." when in truth he's better than average. It's why grading on a curve in school is stupid. What if you have a class full of kids with 130 IQs who all ace most tests and courses, and another school has a class full of kids with IQs ranging from 50 to 100. The smartest kids in the 'stupid' school will have a much better GPA than most of the kids in the 'smart' school if you grade on a curve, even though every kid in the smart school is much smarter than the smartest in the 'stupid' school. Being above average defensively on a team full of better defensive players doesn't mean you are bad defensively. It just means you aren't as good defensively as your teammates. If you're traded to a team that's got piss-poor defensive players, you'll shine defensively even if you don't change your play one bit. It's a matter of contrast. Which is brighter, 90% gray on 80% gray, or 80% gray on black? Which APPEARS brighter?

Fighting /= Grit. Fighting = 5 minutes in the box. Grit = tough, feisty, aggressive.

Hawks win 4-1 Tomas Kopecky scores a pair. LGW facepalms.

Joe Thornton. Anze Kopitar. Evgeni Malkin. Sidney Crosby. Eric Staal. Vincent Lecavalier. Nik Antropov. Antoine Vermette. Scott Gomez. Jason Spezza. Mike Ribiero. All of those guys play first line time with first line scoring wingers. How would Hudler fare with the same linemates and ice time? I would say he's got more offensive skill than Antropov, Vermette, Gomez, and Ribiero right off the bat. Thornton, Malkin, Crosby are obviously much more productive. So how does Hudler stack up against Kopitar, Staal, Lecavalier, and Spezza? Those guys are all true defensive liabilities, while Hudler is above average defensively; just one of the worst defensive forwards on the WINGS, a team loaded with defensively skilled forwards. If you slotted Hudler in the spot of any of the guys I listed in terms of ice time and linemates, he might just come out average or better on the list.

Joe Thornton. Anze Kopitar. Evgeni Malkin. Sidney Crosby. Eric Staal. Vincent Lecavalier. Nik Antropov. Antoine Vermette. Scott Gomez. Jason Spezza. Mike Ribiero. Some of these guys are downright atrocious defensively, some are basically average. None are "responsible" as you quantify it, because none are better than Hudler defensively, at least not significantly, and most are MUCH worse than Hudler defensively. Yes, the center position is typically the defensive lock on a line. But not by any means always. Remember Gretzky's regular lines in Edmonton? Semenko/Gretzky/Kurri. Anderson/Gretzky/Kurri. Tikkanen/Gretzky/Kurri. Semenko/Gretzky/Anderson. That last one is the only one that doesn't include a Selke winner, and Anderson was no slouch defensively. Kurri and Tikkanen were Selke contenders their entire careers. Kurri continued on and was Gretzky's winger in LA as well. Tikkanen rejoined Gretzky on a line briefly in 1995-96. After signing with the New York Rangers that summer, Gretzky would play on the second line, with Luc Robitaille again on his wing, but he would also get one of the league's better defensive specilists in Niklas Sundstrom on the other side. So what's wrong with an excellent playmaking center if one of his wingers can play the lock-down role effectively? Nothing if he does his job well.

How many will have Kopecky hat tricks, oh seer of the future?

Yzerman was still one of the Wings' 3 or 4 best forwards his last couple seasons. Taking a big pay cut is not a requirement, but it sure as hell helps the team win. Yzerman was willing to cut his salary big time in the summer of 2001, even though he was a point-per-game Selke candidate who had been named a first-team all-star only a year prior having just put out a comparable performance that year. Yzerman scored 52 points in 52 games in 2000-01 and despite mising 30 games still finished 5th in Selke voting; which is remarkable because playes who miss large chunks of games typically don't get votes for awards. Had he played the full season, he would likely have won the Selke for the second year in a row, and would likely have taken all-star team votes from the centers who didn't get named to the all-star team, including such players as Sykora, Fedorov, Primeau, and Straka (who played left wing for Robert Lang and Alexei Kovalev that season, but that's for another episode.) While less likely, he might have taken all-star votes from Art Ross winner Joe Sakic, who was among the Selke leaders as well, or Mario Lemieux, who scored 76 points in 43 games and was named to the second team by a fairly hefty margin. Assuming Yzerman didn't take any votes from Sakic or Lemieux, he would have had to collect at least 26 of the remaining 31 second place votes awarded to everyone else. So while he probably doesn't make the all-star team that year, he still gets recognition as having had a damn good season. The next season he posted similar offensive numbers, but was not given the same grace in Selke voting. He would have been among the top centers in scoring and would likely have been among the top Selke vote getters as well. He would have been only a mere 4 points behind the top center in points, Mats Sundin, giving him an excellent shot at a first or second team selection that season as well. 2002-03 was where it really went downhill. Yzerman underwent reconstructive surgery for his knee, having injured it repeatedly throughout his career, and it being the reason he was often missing chunks of games in recent seasons. Yzerman missed the first 66 games of the season, scoring 8 points over the final 16. During the playoffs, Yzerman was struck in the face by a deflected Mathieu Schneider slapshot, breaking his orbital bone and scratching his cornea. He would miss the rest of the playoffs and the World Cup, and would not return to playing until the 2005-06 season. He scored 34 points in 61 games, despite playing limited minutes and serving primarily as a defensive specialist. So Yzerman could, aside from his injuries, be considered one of the league's top centermen every year due to the fact he was among the scoring leaders for centers (injury aside) as well as a consistent contender for the Selke award from 1995-96 through 2001-02. And before that, Yzerman was one of the League's elite offensive talents and a solid defensive player. Lidstrom is one of the League's elite defensemen, and like Yzerman he will likely take a noticeable discount to ensure that his team has the best chance to win. How much of a discount? Who knows. Hopefully he takes under $3m. That would be wonderful. Trade Ericsson or Kindl for Kaberle and Toronto's 2011 1st or 2nd pick? Why not. Think of a defense like this: Lidstrom-Rafalski, Kronwall-Stuart, Kaberle-Ericsson/Kindl/Meech... pretty nice if you ask me. Kaberle definitely fills that slot on the second PP unit pretty well, who CARES if he shoots lefty.

If he repeatedly punched a man trying to get into a house party, doesn't that suggest that those at the party didn't want the guy there? It's entirely possible that the guy who Smith punched was trying to crash the party and when asked to leave he wouldn't, and it got violent. At that point what can you do; it's a he-said/she-said situation.

Kopecky with a goal-scorer's goal for the GW, an assist and a +2. But yeah, he doesn't have any skill and all of his points come from when he gets the chance to play with the team's star players.

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom are superstars in Detroit and would be elsewhere. Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, Rafalski, and Kronwall could be if they were in the right spot with the right kind of supporting players. For example, Rafalski in Washington in Mike Green's slot would be a perennial Norris nominee. Kronwall could be a superstar on most teams and will be considered such in Detroit in a couple seasons. Put Hudler centering a couple of big, physical wingers with decent finishing ability (think Clowe-esque) and he'd be considered one of the best centers in the league.

White has gotten consistently better as he's come up in the Leafs organization. He's 25. Phaneuf started out as a flash and had a big year, and then dropped off considerably. He's 25. White, not Phaneuf, is the one who has been consistently improving year-by-year. Phaneuf's six-year, $39m contract which he is still playing out was signed in the middle of 2007-08, which is to-date his best season. What makes you think White peaked because it was a contract year and Phaneuf didn't do the same? Phaneuf hasn't played even close to the level he was at in 2007-08. It's not unreasonable to suggest that White has just as much chance as Phaneuf of getting up to that level in the future. As for Stajan, he's scored 55+ points two seasons in a row and is a decent defensive player. $3.5 might be a little high, but not wildly out of the range you would pay for a player of his ability. Compare it to Valtteri Filppula, for instance. Flip's deal is a 5-year, $3m per year signed at the same time. Flip has scored at a slightly lower PPG and is comparable defensively. He's the same age. Stajan signed a four-year deal with the Flames worth the same amount soon after Calgary acquired him. So Stajan is signed for one year longer than Flip and is a comparable talent with a comparable contract and is the same age. Stajan won't be a Pavel Datsyuk, but he's a solid top-six forward. 41 points in 55 games in Toronto for Stajan. Whether he got hot in Calgary or not, he was scoring at a pretty good clip in Toronto.

Yzerman scored 50 goals (6th in the NHL) and 52 assists in 64 games in 1987-88 and was 11th in Selke voting with first-place votes. His projected points line was 63-65-128, which would have placed him 2nd-9th-4th. Yzerman scored 65 goals (3rd-3rd-3rd) and 90 assists in 1988-89, and was 18th in Selke voting with first place votes. He also won the Lester B. Pearson award that season. I didn't say Yzerman didn't have to sacrifice offense. But to say he was not good defensively at his offensive best is idiotic.

In the beginning, God said let there be light, and then created Detroit, an area that light could not go. Then he created Brandon Inge, and placed him in Detroit...

Yzerman scored 155 points in 1988-89. That's a number that only Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux have surpassed. He also received Selke votes, including a first place vote, that season. He was in the Selke voting other years in the 80s as well. It's only because of Fedorov's early 90s Selke/Hart and the fact the Wings went from a powerhouse offensive team to a defense-first championship team, and Bowman made a big deal about Yzerman having to be the leader with regard to that. But back to my main point; Yzerman's play in the 80s was surpassed only by Gretzky and Lemieux. He took a Red Wings squad that was composed of AHL players and turned it into a team that would win division crowns. The only reason the Wings didn't get past the Conference Finals in any of those years is the fact that they played the Oilers in the CFs. Lidstrom deserves a lot of credit...but Yzerman was a great defensive player in his early years as well. Not as great as he was later on, but the "Yzerman went from one-way player to defensive star" myth is ridiculous.

Stajan is a good center. White vs. Phaneuf is a good question. This season, White was more offensively productive in both uniforms. Phaneuf is the more physical player, White is better defensively and blocks more shots. I'm not sure who I would take between the two if I had to choose. Same age, so that's not a factor. The big question is, how much money is White going to get from the Flames? If it's $3m or less, then a combination of Stajan/White is definitely better than just Phaneuf. Phaneuf makes #6.5 for the next four seasons. Stajan makes $3.5 for the next four. White at $3m or less makes the deal fall heavily in favor of that pair for the same money. White for more and you can pose the question "What did Toronto get with the extra cap space?" but the answer, of course, will be that they got crap.

Yeah, imagine if Jeremy Jacobs up and bought the Maple Leafs, and merged the two clubs into the Boston Maple Leafs... we'd be looking at something like this:

Giguere has much better technique than most goalies in the league; his issues are mental. If he can get his head straight he can get back to form among one of the top goalies in the league. Furthermore, when he does have his head straight, he is one of the goalies in the league who is the kind of guy who takes the playoff pressure and comes up with his best games. Guys like Jiggy, Ozzie, Brodeur, Roy, Vernon, Hextall, etc. are examples of this while other guys have shown that when the playoff pressure gets heavy and they need to come up big for their team, they just shut down and can't do it. Luongo is the biggest name example of this type in the league right now; he has shown no ability to play his best under do-or-die pressure when his team needs it the most; instead he has repeatedly fallen apart. Giguere is at a dangerous point in his career; he could turn it around into a great career, or he could fall apart into a washed up nothing.

If I EVER wore a Penguins jersey, I think it would have to be a Ron Francis or Tom Barrasso.

Why would there be an issue with wearing an Yzerman jersey? Hell, why not get a #19 Yzerman Tampa Bay jersey with the C on it and wear that instead if you're so concerned?

Komisarek is a #2-3 d-man at his best. He has top-pairing potential but is extremely unlikely to maintain that level of play over a full season. Beauch can probably be considered a top-four defenseman; but he's no better than a #4 over the course of a year. On a good night? Sure, he could give a team fits. Phaneuf I'm sure we can agree has not been the top-end defenseman people hype him to be, and although he is probably the most talented defenseman in Toronto it's arguable whether he was even the most effective last season based on his overall play if you include his time in Calgary. Luke Schenn is a solid second pairing defenseman with definite top-pairing potential. Not an argument about him because he's barely out of juniors while the others are in their primes and so should have some solid hockey in them at the level they are at or perhaps slightly above, while Schenn should improve considerably, possibly being the Leafs' top defenseman within two or three years. But regarding the "Beauchemin was a beast and was key against us"; one game or one series is not a good sample size...Can Franzen score 100 goals? Hot streaks, cold streaks, injury/sickness... all of these things can affect a small sample of games. You can say "If he played like that all year, he'd have done this" but that's just putting a hot streak into perspective - Think Kopecky and his very solid post-Olympic stretch this year. Great performance, 30-goal pace, but the chances of a 3rd-line checking center maintaining it over a full year are not very high.

Minor raise for a PPG forward who plays good D and was the only top-sixer to show up in all series the Sharks played this year. Even without the letter, he's the real captain of the team and led them as far as they went. Definitely the Sharks' #1 forward to keep.

I am hoping for another Probert, without the off-ice problems. As long as he has the ability to play on the top-three lines, score 15-20 goals and do so with the intimidation factor, I don't care if he goes all season with 0 fights or 20; unlike the enforcer slappies who want a 5 minute fourth liner who contributes nothing but 20 fights, and he MUST have 20 fights or it's a bad signing.

Hudler is not above average defensively when compared to the Wings' roster of the past few years, no. But compared to the LEAGUE? Yes. And as for hard work? I guess I don't see how whether he can outmuscle a guy in the corner determines whether he works hard. Despite his size, Hudler goes into the corners and fights for pucks, and he is always willing to crash the net. He puts out a full effort every s*** and does what he can to try and help the team. He's not perfect, but he has definitely improved since he has started with the team (making the team out of camp as a 19 year old despite Holland's standard "bury them in the minors" process due to his impressive skill, BTW) There are a lot of guys who are 5 inches and 25 lbs heavier than Hudler who aren't nearly as willing to go into the corners or crash the net. But they can probably outmuscle Hudler, so they work harder, right?