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What has Crosby achieved that Ovechkin hasn't? Conn Smythe? Olympic MVP? Playoff scoring leader? (goals, assists, or points) Olympic Goal is a team achievement, and yes Crosby scored the winning OT goal, but despite being the "face of the team" he was ultimately a supporting player at best, more likely an invisible offensive player who occasionally pitched in. Stanley Cup is a team achievement, and Crosby was ineffective in both Finals he played in. Malkin led the team to their Finals comeback and eventual win, and he led them to the Finals in both years. Fleury wasn't unstoppable, but he made the saves he needed to make at the right times. Crosby was maybe the seventh most important player in either Finals run yet gets credit for "his achievement" as a Cup winner. He was about as important to the Pens as Slava Kozlov was to the 97 and 98 Wings. Is Kozlov better than Ovechkin too? Marcel Dionne never won a Cup. Pat LaFontaine never won a Cup. Dino Ciccarelli never won a Cup. Curtis Joseph never won a Cup. Eric Lindros never won a Cup. Pavel Bure never won a Cup. Phil Housley never won a Cup. Cam Neely never won a Cup. Adam Oates never won a Cup. Who here is going to tell me that Cups are the single measure of success in a player's career? Or that Gold medals in any international competition is the same? Sorry, if you say so you are way off. Team sport, team accomplishment. Yes, some players mean more than others... but if a lot of the team plays poorly one or two players can only rarely overcome that. Especially against an opponent playing extremely well. Washington was not playing well, and Montreal was hitting on all cylinders. Pittsburgh could be put in the same boat, but Ovechkin was definitely much more effective than Crosby.

Ignoring the cap, but still going with the team-building idea, my team would look something like this. Franzen/Zetterberg/Crosby Ovechkin/Datsyuk/Malkin Find me two more capable scoring lines that can be put out in any situation, and I'll give you a cookie. Kesler/Toews/Doan After those two scoring lines have been put together, is there a better third line you can build? D.Sedin/H.Sedin/Getzlaf Sedins really have to be included. and it's pretty much a given to include a dominant power forward in that third spot. Iginla Best forward left in terms of filling whatever role is required. Lidstrom/Doughty Lidstrom playing the defensive role yet still contributing so much offensively. Doughty learning defense from playing with Nick and already a monster offensively. Weber/Keith Weber is a solid two-way defenseman with a great physical game, and Keith is the best two-way defenseman in the league after Lidstrom. Pronger/Chara Defense. Size. Physical game. And they can play some offense too. But mostly around for the D game. Kronwall Strong at both ends, great hitter. As good a seventh defenseman as anyone else, and you want to keep a capable skill player with physical presence. Miller Best goalie in the league, capable of playing his best in clutch situations. Osgood As good a backup as you'll find, and a guy who has shown not long ago that he is more than capable of elite play under pressure. Babcock Best coach in the world who hasn't retired. Has coached 14 of the 22 players on the roster. Only coach in the "Triple Gold" Club.

Teams have needed to have solid defenses and goalies in the pre-cap era also. Think back to the 80s and 90s. How many teams won Cups with an elite goaltender and DIDN'T have a strong defense and capable offense? The Islanders dynasty? Don't think so. The Oilers? Yeah right. The Canadiens? Sorry, 1986 and 1993 were strong teams. The Flames? That was a great team that could have been a true dynasty had Edmonton not been around. Pittsburgh? Great goalie backing up a strong defense and amazing offense. New York? Good all around. New Jersey? Excellent defense, solid forwards, excellent goaltending. Colorado? This is really getting redundant. Detroit? Amazing forwards, defense, and goaltending in all four Cup seasons since 1997. Dallas? Effective all around with a great, highly motivated goaltender. Anaheim? Well, maybe they were short in the forwards department, but goaltending and defense more than made up for it. Tampa Bay? Excellent goaltending and ridiculous forwards, plus solid defense. Carolina? Crazy goaltending for a team with solid defense and scoring. Pittsburgh? Excellent scoring with two of the top five forwards in the NHL, a solid D corps, and a hot goalie. Carolina is the closest you'll get since 1970 to a team that won the Cup with a great goaltender with a weak team. Ward is only just now really establishing himself as a top goaltender, so that only proves further that it's not about the goaltender you have. It's about the team you have, and whether your goaltender shows up for the playoffs (see: Chris Osgood 2008 and 2009) so having an "elite" goaltender is far less important than having a "good" goaltender while building a strong team with a good defense and deep, effective all-around forward corps. It's what won Detroit the Cup in 2009, it's what will win other teams Cups in the future. Believe it.

Crosby was awesome in game 7. He took a bad penalty right off the bat which put his team down a goal, played 29 minutes and was ONLY a -2 with no points! CLUTCH I tell you! CLUTCH like no one has ever been!

How about this deal? 2010-11: $3m 2011-12: $1.5m Total value $4.5m, cap hit $2.25m Remember these two important things, though: The 100/50 rule: A player's salary may not increase by more than the lower of the amount of the first two years from one year to the next, and it may not decrease by more than half of that amount from one year to the next. So a three year, $8.5m contract such as: 1: $5m 2: $2.5m 3: $1m This would be invalid because of the decrease from year 1 to year 2. The same $8.5m/3 year deal would be valid if spread out thusly: 1: $4m 2: $3m 3: $1.5m Just make minor adjustments to the deal to make it valid. Also, don't suggest silly deals like this: 1: $4 2: $3 3: $1.5 4: $1.5 5: $525k 6: $525k 7: $525k 8: $525k Sure, it's a cap hit of $1,512,500 that the Wings would only be looking at for a year or two...but the NHL would NEVER approve that deal. That's like suggesting Filppula, Kindl, and Howard for Ovechkin in a trade thread. Although I think something close has come up IIRC.

F: Zetterberg Datsyuk Crosby Ovechkin Stamkos H.Sedin D.Sedin Backstrom Toews Kesler Malkin J.Thornton D: Chara Keith Lidstrom Doughty Pronger Kaberle G: Miller Vokoun

Pens' first goal resulted from a puck deflected to the corner that was basically kicked by the ref to the Pens player.

I'm always amused by the "Bettman f***ed up when he moved the team from Winnipeg to Phoenix" stuff. Yes, the Coyotes have not exactly been a huge success, but here's a history lesson and a lesson in NHL procedure for everyone in this thread since everyone here seems to not understand how it works: Winnipeg was failing miserably since joining the NHL. Between the WHA/NHL merger and the move, its attendance peaked close to 15,500 and averaged closer to 12,500, which was well below what all other teams were doing. The Jets were not "Moved by Bettman" as everyone here seems to idiotically think. The Jets were put up for sale, and eventually sold via the official NHL procedure to owners who wanted to move them to Phoenix. The team was moved after playing one final season in Winnipeg. Team sale requires approval of the NHL Board of Governors; in other words all of the other owners vote and a majority must approve the sale or it's a no-go; see the Balsillie circus for this. Team relocation requires a BoG vote. There is typically a relocation fee and a waiting period; the only recent team to move without playing at least one season after being sold were the Quebec Nordiques/Colorado Avalanche, who were sold due to financial issues almost immediately after being eliminated from the playoffs in 1995 and moved to Denver that summer. Winnipeg did not lose its team because Bettman wanted to move a Canadian team to a southern American city as so many of you Bettman-haters feel. The Jets moved because Winnipeg simply could not support the Jets anymore. Sorry, but that's the facts.

I didn't hit you with a minus, GMR. I ignore that s***. As for the topic, Hudler has as much scoring ability as anyone on the Wings when given the ice time. Only Datsyuk is a better playmaker on the whole team, and he is one of the team's best pure goal scorers. He creates his own scoring opportunities and opens up chances for his linemates. He sees the ice like few can. 70 is definitely not out of reach. Go back and watch how he ran that second PP unit some time.

Bertuzzi only had a cap hit of $1.5m with the Wings, but he made $3m due to his buyout. He doesn't get any buyout money after this past season, so he may look to get a raise over the $1.5m even if he makes less than the $3m he got last season. Regardless, it's almost certain that only one of Homer and Bert will return; possibly Bert due to Homer perhaps retiring.

Lilja may retire due to his injury issues, and he may go elsewhere because he could play in many teams' top four and get approximately $2m per season. Also, the Wings will be bringing up Kindl and Meech is a better fit as 7th defenseman in general than Lilja, Ericsson, or Kindl.

Except at least three games due to giving up bad goals at the worst possible time, bad goals in the 3rd that would cost the team a lead and/or one that would give the opposing team the lead in the second half of the 3rd. He has some very good games, but he overall he was generally a liability on a team that was inconsistent defensively.

And don't forget, trade Hank, Dats, Hudler, Howard, and Franzen for Ovechkin. Washington might go for that deal, although it is in favor of Detroit.

I hope Montreal beats Pittsburgh and moves on to the finals in the East. I hope Chicago puts up a 6+ spot on Luongo in the next game and then destroys San Jose in 4. I hope Chicago and Montreal have a good, old-time style final that works out in 5 games with Chicago winning, and that rat Joel Quenneville finally winning something and deciding to retire. I hope Kopecky scores 15 goals in the next 10 games and wins the Conn Smythe.

Assuming Lidstrom returns (no guarantees) then I expect the #5-6-7 defensemen to be Ericsson, Kindl, and Meech. I wouldn't expect any two of the three to play together very much either in terms of being all three dressed at once or paired together, but I would expect Meech to take the defensive role if that happened as he has shown the most defense-oriented game of the three.

Roy with Colorado really was great. His performance in Colorado was much better than his performance in Montreal. Osgood in Detroit has performed just as well if not better in the postseason as Roy did in Montreal. Roy in Colorado stepped his game up from where it was in Montreal. It would be like seeing Osgood play the 11 playoffs, and make his play in the 08 and 09 playoffs look like his 09-10 regular season. That was the difference in his play.

This is the roster I expect next season as well. The only possible differences are minor: Lilja out for Meech, possibly with Maltby in as 14th forward depending on cap space. One of Maltby/Meech in as 23rd player in addition to listed roster depending on cap space. I'd be more satisfied with slightly more rounded lines though. I've probably posted three or four different sets at this point, but here goes with a couple options: Set 1: Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom Cleary-Abdelkader-Miller Draper-Helm-Eaves Ritola Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart Ericsson-Lilja Kindl Set 2: Hudler-Zetterberg-Cleary Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom Abdelkader-Filppula-Miller Draper-Helm-Eaves Ritola Lidstrom-Ericsson Kronwall-Rafalski Kindl-Stuart Meech Set 3: Cleary-Zetterberg-Franzen Hudler-Datsyuk-Holmstrom Miller-Filppula-Eaves Draper-Helm-Abdelkader Ritola Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Ericsson Meech-Stuart Kindl

I said that if he maintained that level of play over the entire season, he would be a 30 goal scorer. That is a mathematical fact. I didn't say he would or could do it. Simply that if he did it, that is the kind of pace he was scoring at. You really need to work on your reading comprehension skills because you don't seem to understand simple statements.

Looking at these two statements alone: Vladdy was arguably the best defenseman in the league the two years prior to his injury. Nick has been the most dominant defenseman in the league since then. There are a couple moves that would not have happened if Vladdy had still been around: Krupp would never have been a wing, Hatcher would never have been a Wing, and Chelios would never have been traded for. All three moves were attempts to replace the gritty, defensive presence of Konstantinov. Fischer was developing into quite a dominant defenseman in his own right. He was one of the fastest defensemen in the NHL, strong defensively, could play well physically, and his offensive game was just coming around. Had he not suddenly had his career ended, he might be one of the top ten defensemen in the NHL right now and a perennial Norris contender. The Wings would probably have won one or two more Cups, perhaps more. It is likely that they would not have traded Kozlov for Hasek, as they would not have felt the need to go out and get a goaltender who had the reputation of being able to steal a series due to the defensive breakdowns the team had the previous couple of playoff years. This also likely leads to Robitaille not being signed, as Kozlov's slot does not need to be filled. So, in short: Hatcher, Hasek, Chelios, Krupp, and Robitaille would not have been Wings. Olausson is probably not signed because he was no better than Anders Eriksson was at that point in their respective careers. The Wings still win the Cup in 2002, with the following lineup alterations: Robitaille, Olausson, Chelios, Hasek out. Kozlov, Eriksson, Konstantinov, Osgood in. The 2001 team had a very comparable roster, aside from a couple injuries to key forwards. Adding Konstantinov instead of Chelios might have made enough difference to make a deeper playoff run. The 1999 team was strong, but Osgood was injured after round 1 and Ranford showed in the second round exactly why he was a backup goalie. The Wings probably win in 2007 and 2009, as well as perhaps another year or two between 1998 and 2007, if Vladdy and Jiri are not injured and the resulting lack of moves I stated happen. For one, Eriksson probably develops into much more playing on a team with Lidstrom rather than just bouncing around the league as a second pairing defenseman. Imagine if Kronwall had just been traded and bounced around the league early in his career? He'd never develop into what he could have been and will be with Detroit. One more player to add into this... Igor Grigorenko. He was considered to be a similar player in terms of style and skill to Alex Ovechkin when he played in Russia according to many scouts. Imagine if he never was involved in that accident, and came over and played with the Wings? Who knows what might have happened if you add that into this situation.

Did anyone else notice that Bertuzzi and Filppula seemed to be incapable of handling the puck for more than three feet without losing it?

The problem with Vancouver is that they have built their team like this: Excellent top line. Solid second line. Mediocre checking line. Mediocre fourth line. Good top pair. Decent second pair. Mediocre third pair. Very good regular season goalie who they hope can carry them in the playoffs. Most championship teams are built like this: Strong top line Strong second line. Good checking line Solid fourth line. Very good top pairing. Strong second pairing. Decent third pair. Good regular season goalie capable of carrying the team in the playoffs. Look at the two builds. Which builds provide very good regular seasons and playoff failure, and which provide good regular seasons and deep playoff runs? I think you all know the answer.

Yzerman was the Canadian international assists and points all-time record holder until Heatley passed him. Yzerman being better than Gretzky defensively, better physically, faster, a better leader, and better on faceoffs generally would suggest Yzerman should be the pick for center before Gretzky. Although Larionov probably deserves it more. How about Sven Tumba? He'd be a pretty damn good choice also. Regardless, Gretzky is well down the list of who should be on the list at center (Tumba, Larionov, Yzerman), and Lidstrom's international experience is limited due largely to the Wings' playoff success.

Duplicate Cleary was from a rushed post and has been corrected. Kopecky replacing Draper in the lineup is because how can you not replace a fourth-line mediocre defensive forward with one of the most dominant and clutch power forwards the NHL has ever seen?

The lines we need to go with tonight if we want to kick some ass: Franzen/Zetterberg/Cleary Kopecky/Datsyuk/Holmstrom Bertuzzi/Filppula/Eaves Abdelkader/Helm/Miller Rafalski/Lidstrom Kronwall/Stuart Ericsson/Lilja EDIT: Corrected duplicate Cleary from rushed post.

Yzerman should be on the list over Gretzky; Yzerman had far more international success than Gretzky did.