norrisnick

Filppula won't score 20-25 goals this year. I see that as his career peak. He's never been much of a goal scorer and just doesn't have the shot/hands for it. I see him having offensive defenseman type numbers 10-20 goals and 40-50 assists.

I believe Chelios has scored the deciding goal in every game and scrimmage he's participated in this preseason. Almost spooky.

Franzen has been a beast on the Datsyuk/Holmstrom line all preseason long. It works.

This is hockey, not MMA. The take-down usually occurs when one guy no longer wants to or is no longer able to effectively throw punches. It's a way to stop the fight. Not a way to win it.

Andre Roy has a wiki page? Wow... You have no balls. YOU, have no balls! Hilarity. JD (paraphrased) I'd go with anyone on either team, but I wouldn't fight Joe Kocur!

Reading comprehension is your friend. I did not say Hudler could fight everyone on the list, let alone maintain a winning record. I said he coudl fight anyone on that list if he wanted to. And followed that up by stating it doesn't make him a good fighter. I don't know why you give me the time of day. I'd prefer it if you didn't, honestly. Anyhoo, back to the reading comprehension part. I asked Production line if he had Downey in his top 50. You freaked out about it, yet here you state that he probably doesn't make your top 30. So really, what's the big deal here? Why is that vein throbbing so prominently on your forehead? Downey is a bottom tier fighter. Whoopty doo! The last time the Wings had a line brawl was in '03 I believe when the Blues were crying about getting swept in the season series. To put it bluntly I'm not at all worried about it. Hang on, don't get hurt, get off the ice. Let the other team embarass themselves. Wasn't Roy the guy the Pens acquired thinking he'd protect their golden boy? From what I hear that didn't turn out so well. He was also on a line with Dingman and the Toolman for Tampa's Cup run, no?

I thought it was a draw according to the hockeyfights.com crowd? All of a sudden that gets turned into a s*** kicking? So that's his fight card. Great. Where do YOU rank Aaron Downey? He fought Donald Brashear. Surely you don't think he's better than Huggybear, right? So what's the point of bringing it up? If Hudler felt so inclined he could fight anyone on that list, but that doesn't make him a good fighter. What makes Downey a good fighter, and how good do you honestly think he is? I know he's become some sort of demi-god around these parts by sheer virture of him possibly being signed, but c'mon now. He's far closer to the bottom of the proverbial barrel than he is to the top. Even I know this.

Lot's of things haven't happened. That doesn't mean they can't happen. That's the point. You can't point history as proof of the future. It doesn't work like that. Especially if you look at last season. Having or not having fighters had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the WCF. Downey is barely a fighter let alone a player. Honestly, how far down the rankings of guys that fight in the NHL do you put Aaron Downey? Is he even top 50?

Why cutesy it all up?

Indeed it is. It's not necessary to go from thread to thread making sure everyone is holding hands and singing kumbaya. Contentious debates and firm opposing viewpoints are allowed. As is making mountains out of molehills, to a point. Clearly this is a meaningful debate to those involved (that or the participants get some enjoyment out of the verbal sparring or whatever), so it makes no sense to hop in and belittle everyone involved just because you don't care. We don't care that you don't care. Otherwise we'd have asked for your opinion long ago. Time for your funny Caution sign. PS - it's impossible for anything to be under the Earth's core. There is no under the Earth's core for as you go to what appears to be beneath it, you're simply moving above it again. Like trying to go North of the North Pole. Not happening.

Then don't ******* read it. Sorry, had to get that out of my system...

Because you aren't making a sound argument. Why should I reply to a meaningless statement with anything more than a meaningless one of my own? Not winning a cup since Mac was rightfully turned away means nothing. It doesn't prove anything. It doesn't support anything. Particularly since the McCarty that was around the last couple seasons was a liabiltiy out on the ice. Apart from a great WCF in '02 he'd been steadily declining since the back to back cups in the late 90s. Hurt a lot. No longer being able to keep up with the play. And really not even enforcing anything. He wasn't bought out for nothing.

What caused the game to be tied? Franzen not clearing that puck. We were winning 1-0 with seconds left (on a goal by Lilly no less). Ducks picked off the weak backhanded clear attempt, got the puck to Niedermayer (the good one) and he fluttlered a shot off of Lidstrom's stick that sailed over Dom's shoulder. Then in OT Lilly tried to carry the puck throught he slot but forgot the puck. Millimeters. Their team was no more well-balanced than ours. They didn't play significantly better than we did. They won more games, but we outplayed them more than they did us. Markov had long stretches of unremarkable play all season long. Every now and then he'd mix in a great hit or two, but he's not a constant highlight reel. He wasn't before the fight, so why should he be after? Did they win because of those traits? I wouldn't say so. The teams were very evenly matched and I'd even give the edge to us as far as carrying the play goes. Oh I get it. I was merely bringing in another similarly flawed theory that many in the hockey world do cling to. There are fans/analysts of the game that believe you cannot win without a Canadian leading the charge. They point to the fact that it's never happened. As you so graciously pointed out, that's a flawed argument. Get it? Are you kidding? What was that series we just had against the Ducks? Who said anything about best? Or even enforcers as a whole? Go back in the thread. You will find a post of mine where I state that there would be no one happier than me if we had a guy like Clark Gillies, or Probert, or even McCarty in his heyday. I have no problem with enforcers. So long as they can play the game. A roster spot and cap space is too important to waste on a guy that can't contribute while he's got gloves on.

Since the departure of Fedorov and Larionov how many Cup wins do we have?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=23046 Click on the show trades button. 2006-Jan-30 Traded from Carolina Hurricanes with Mike Zigomanis, Magnus Kahnberg, round 1 pick in the 2006 draft (Matt Corrente), round 4 pick in the 2007 draft and round 4 pick in the 2006 draft (Reto Berra) to St. Louis Blues for Doug Weight and Erkki Rajamaki

The Ducks did not manhandle us. Franzen clears the puck in game 5, we win the series. Plain and simple. If that teensy tiny play can swing the series, how can you sit there and type all this crap about the big bad Ducks running roughshod over the Wings and we were powerless to stop them? It just isn't true. That game, and that series, was millimeters from going the other way. To address your points of definitive stats... Can a team win with a European Captain? It's never happened before in the 90 year history of the league so it should be impossible, right? Nationality of your captain ranks right up there with having an enforcer on your team for reasons your team can, or cannot, win the Cup. It's just not relevant. For the love of Pete. I hope you didn't get any on the keyboard... I sincerely apologize to the participants in this thread that I failed to account for Boulerice's vital contribution to the Hurricane's Cup run.... as he was packing up his Blues' sweater (or was it Rivermen by that point?).

And lost a complete toss-up of a series in the conference finals. The horror!!!! The Wings don't have anyone and don't NEED anyone for an enforcer. That is the point.

I never said there were many successful teams that had no enforcer. I'm merely saying that the correllation is not necessarily there. There has never been a European captained team that has won the Cup. Does that mean we're screwed for the next decade or so? No. It's just one more of the many myths propagated by the Old Time Hockey Hoser Style Consortium. The Wings have never won the Cup without engraving Howe on to the big shiny silver thing. What does that mean? We can't win without a Howe in our organization? Nope. Just a coincidence. Enforcers are not a necessity for success. We made it to the Conference Finals without one (unless someone is going to freak out and bring up Norton's 5-6 games?). We didn't lose to the Ducks because they were bigger and tougher than us. Hell, we didn't even lose to the Ducks because they were better than us. Just didn't get the necessary bounces that a Cup winner invariably gets.

I've already stated that I haven't played hockey. Hell, it was inferred in that post you just quoted. Try and keep up. Where were Parros and McGrattan in the playoffs? In the stands. Doesn't it say something about the importance of these guys when all the other organizations put them on the shelf when the real games begin? Why bother with the carnival if they're not going to play in the important games? That's 50-odd regular season games and $500K that could go to a player that might actually see playoff games. Not my fault NHL.com lied to me. 1 Mike Commodore D CAR 72 138 49 4 1 1 0 2 Eric Staal C CAR 82 81 38 1 0 0 0 3 Doug Weight C CAR 70 75 35 1 0 0 0 4 Rod Brind'Amour C CAR 78 68 34 0 0 0 0 5 Mark Recchi R CAR 83 68 34 0 0 0 0 6 Aaron Ward D CAR 71 62 31 0 0 0 0 7 Justin Williams R CAR 82 60 30 0 0 0 0 8 Bret Hedican D CAR 74 58 29 0 0 0 0 9 Erik Cole L CAR 60 54 27 0 0 0 0 10 Craig Adams R CAR 67 51 13 3 1 0 0 11 Glen Wesley D CAR 64 46 23 0 0 0 0 12 Frantisek Kaberle D CAR 77 46 23 0 0 0 0 13 Ray Whitney L CAR 63 42 21 0 0 0 0 14 Niclas Wallin D CAR 50 42 21 0 0 0 0 15 Matt Cullen C CAR 78 40 20 0 0 0 0 16 Oleg Tverdovsky D CAR 72 37 16 1 0 0 0 17 Kevyn Adams C CAR 82 36 13 0 1 0 0 18 Chad Larose C CAR 49 35 10 1 1 0 0 19 Cory Stillman L CAR 72 32 16 0 0 0 0 20 Anton Babchuk D CAR 39 22 11 0 0 0 0 21 Andrew Hutchinson D CAR 36 18 9 0 0 0 0 22 Josef Vasicek C CAR 23 8 4 0 0 0 0 23 Keith Aucoin R CAR 7 4 2 0 0 0 0 24 Andrew Ladd L CAR 29 4 2 0 0 0 0 25 David Gove L CAR 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 According to their penalty breakdown for that season only Commodore and Adams had more than 2 majors (4 and 3 respectively). Apparently players that get shipped out aren't counted. Then again, what does trading away your enforcer for a cup run tell you?

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article.../709230719/1053 Ryno is not a name I expected to be there. Also interesting that Downey apparently has falled out of the running compared to only a week ago. He also hopes to get the special teams ironed out before the real games start.

More than theirs. IE, whatever you pitch in is fine so long as you stay on the plus side of the ledger. Realistically, I'd like to see 5-10 goals and 20 points out of everyone on the 4th line. Is that gonna happen? Probably not.

That's crap. I've played sports. Hockey isn't magically different where fighting is needed. It's simply the only sport where it's somewhat accepted, and that's mostly just because it's always been there. Not out of some mythical need. Hockey is still hockey without the fighting. But I'm sure they'd much rather have an enforcer that isn't a liability out on the ice (thus making their jobs harder, not easier). This thread is getting sidetracked, but that's my main point in this debate. Can't just strap some skates on Fedor. He's gotta be able to play or he won't be out on the ice to be able to enforce anything. PS - I never said there were a whole bunch of great teams that didn't have any type of enforcer. I said there where a whole bunch of enforcers that weren't on great teams. What great team was Stu Grimson ever on? As much as I love him and the Wings, what great team was Probert ever on? The aforementioned Tony Twist? And so on, and so forth.

Short memory span? The '06 Hurricanes had no enforcer. Nor did any one of their regulars fight even more than a couple times. And I hope you realize for every cup winning team, there is a league full of teams that didn't win it all. That said, it was mostly stated to toss another meaningless and wholly unsupported statistic back into the fray. PS to your PS - funny how this issue qualifies for the old "you haven't played, your opinion doesn't matter" adage. it's a completely meaningless stand to take. By that very same token I could state that none of you have ever played at the NHL level so clearly your viewpoints are flawed. You can't compare a beer league game to the highest level possible. But that would be a stupid argument to make. As is the one you guys are making. It's a cop out, plain and simple. You're unable to make your point without sticking your head in the sand. Defend the point, rather than using a lame "because".

That they are. Atlanta is further west than both Columbus and Detroit. Very rough, but to illustrate.

There is nothing more ridiculous than the tired "you never played, you don't know what you're talking about". There are countless great hockey minds out there that never played a shift of meaningful hockey. I'm not putting myself up there as one of them, nor will I ever claim to be up there, but I also can't play an instrument or hold a note, but I know good music when I hear it. And for the record, JR will NEVER be as respected as Bob McKenzie should he continue to pursue some sort of tv analyst job when his playing career is over. JR has media appeal because he speaks before he thinks. He's comic relief. That's it. I never defended Twist or Semenko. And even if I did, are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that Aaron Downey could in any way do what those two did? Not to mention that the late-80s/early-90s are dramatically different than the game today. Teams for the most part aren't wasting roster spots on guys that can't contribute on either end of the ice. But at the end of all that, look at who it is you're trying to defend here. Aaron Downey. He's not half the fighter Twister was and even Twister was a part-time player at best. The year before it was Brad Norton. Before that it was Bootland. Before that it was Ryan Barnes. Etc... I realize you guys are frustrated with the path the Wings are taking, but clinging to these 3rd rate enforcers as if they're our only hope for success is complete nonsense. They won't change the fabric of the team. They won't put us over the hump. Because they aren't good enough. Not even at what they're best at. And I bet you 90% of the enforcers in NHL history weren't on successful teams either.