hockeysattva

He was named to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1989, the first Soviet player to be so honored and to be inducted without having played a game in the NHL. [wiki again] And I stand corrected although I think the sentiment I was carrying is still reflected.

Fetisov, is the only modern era player who had a substantial career outside of the NHL that I can think of, aside from him its all really NHL players (unless go back to the pre-NHL era).

Given that -- no new players were added -- this is one of the best reflections I have ever seen of how hard it is to get into the HOF. Now that I am getting older, I am seeing people's careers from start to finish. There are atleast three players on here that I thought were sure thing HOFers when they played that probably won't make it... It is important to remember that in the early part of this decade some questionable players were admitted and they have made things a touch more exclusive since -- I do not know "the lack of true greatness" argument, but I know that it has been made... I also know that the HOF has always been criticized for focusing on NHL players (right or wrong)... One of the Biggest debates: (stolen from Wiki) [Paul] Henderson has not been inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, and there has been much debate over his omission. He scored one of the most famous goals in Hockey and Canadian sports history when he scored the winning goal in the deciding game eight of the 1972 Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union. If Henderson was inducted, it would be due almost entirely to the historical significance of that goal (plus his game-winners in games six and seven as well). Although his NHL numbers were respectable (236 goals and 477 points in 707 career NHL games), they are not close to the levels of those generally selected for induction. His candidacy has led to many debates among hockey fans, because although his performance in the Summit Series made him one of the most well known names in hockey, many fans feel that it is not right to honour a player's entire career because of one highlight. Anyway, I don't know for sure what counts, but I think in the end Larionov gets in and Dino doesn't... I think Oates gets in but Damphousse doesn't... I think Doug Gilmour will make it too, but I would hate to argue this stuff for a living.

Crosby is a helluva player, and he is getting better. He may get more attention than he deserves but unless you just tuned in -- thats kind of the story in the NHL. So he isn't the best two way forward, and he doesn't kill penalties. Heck, I don't even like him, but I can recognize that there is a reason people talk about him.

Making real sacrifices for his team.

The knob-hockey belongs in another thread. Do we have a NSFW section on this forum... you know not safe for work?

Lets-go RedWings!!!!!!!

He doesn't do it for calls, just for the love...

I fixed your post for you 66. Since, I know you don't come in here just to be a troll and that its easy for you to be misunderstood.

Sorry for the double post, please delete this.

This is the kind of post and thread that makes me post at the Pens site now. You are lame as are those who agree with you. The Wings deserve better than you.

If they don't come back alive in the second... they will, Wings are not going to lose this game.

Garbage or not, soft goals won game three for the Pens and good/ lucky saves and some tremendous penaly killing along with a couple timely goals won game four for the Wings. The series isn't over but the Pens should be concerned about a fat lady who appears to be clearing her throat.

Shanny was and still is one of my favorite players, he is not the power forward that he used to be, but thats not what this team needs anyway. I don't even know that I think Sergei's contract would fit with this team. I disagree however with the idea that Stevie's departure was a good thing, like Cheli has done, he dropped salary and minutes to play an important role. [Note: Cheli has blown some plays in the playoffs, but he was definitely helpful for the last few seasons, and Stevie Y never was a liability, period.]

I almost forgot what I was planning on saying to begin with... Ozzie took a swipe at the puck, he missed it and ended up out of position. It happens, and he has been great, but he got caught twice in one game and we lost. (Yes, I am calling the first one soft.) Two shut-outs vs. two goals he would like to have back. Anyway, moaning about the bad calls, and missed calls... this is hockey, expect your team to win the game not penalties, since, after all the Wings still have this one.

I think what happens here is a better example of whining like the proverbial school girl http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip55386#clip56510

A very incomplete story is told when you look at just a part of the picture. In this case a teams profitability is being given based on ticket sales alone, and that is hardly the whole story. It does make it clear that hockey is a much bigger sport in Canada than it is here, but I don't think that should be a news flash to anyone...

I think they didn't call it because they couldn't make up their minds. Unsportsmanlike conduct (diving) or interference? So, they just forgot about it we really got away with one there, it could have cost us the game...

Lakers aside... really, you like the Ducks more? Really, I give lots of credit to the Pens, sure I have seen a few things I don't like in the finals, but its the freaking finals! Franzen gets sucker punched in the face... Pronger does that on his way to breakfast. I really think its time for people to take a chill pill, I am not saying people should like everything about the Pens or their fans, buts seriously. AND SINCE IT NEEDS REPEATING: Sidney Crosby is the new face of the NHL. That doesn't make him the best player, but them are the facts.

Some of the worst fans I have ever seen were actually the Red Wings fans at the Ducks/ Wings series the year we swept them... I thought it was pretty funny that they managed to make a bonfire with the t-shirts given away at the game, but I thought it had gone too far (for sure) when they were stealing and tricking little kids to add more fuel to the fire ... but sports will always have its hecklers. Personally, I have always thought that Raiders fans were the worst of any sport...

A goal that was allowed, could have reasonably been called off, but the rules being rules two goals have been ruled non-goals when they should have. Pens fans have gotten awfully indignant, and you say "look at the rulebook." Well when I read the rules I see things like impedes the goalie, and that simply didn't happen. Stick between the legs? Passed gas over the edge of the crease? Gimme-a-break. If you want to talk about missing calls -- How about when Lidstrom got slapped in the face by a stick last game? Or the away from the puck punch to the face that Franzen received the game before? The Penguins tried to be a classy team of skilled players, but they couldn't compete, so they are resorting (like so many others before them have) to ugly on ice performances. The Red Wings didn't muck it up then, and still don't, you just get caught in their traps.

I do think you have a point, and in that I will say: PLUS/MINUS +/- 1. Henrik Zetterberg, DET 15 2. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 12 3. Johan Franzen, DET 9 4. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 9 5. Ryan Whitney, PIT 8 ... 12 Sidney Crosby, PIT 6 .... 18 Evgeni Malkin, PIT 5 Now Scuderi and Hossa have more than Crosby does with +8 and +7 respectively, but this suggests something pretty powerful about who scores goals and doesn't get scored on. I do think Buccigross has not factored in the defensive role of these forwards as much as he could/should have, but given he actually picks the Pens I thought he actually came pretty close on this one... I guess I had to know I couldn't agree with him for long.

Ok, I haven't liked what he has written recently, but this embodies what I have been thinking and then some... "Hello John, My name is Rick Jones. I work as a firefighter in the Detroit area. Can I pick your brain? I'm trying to make a case here. Who would you rather have -- Crosby/Malkin or Datsyuk/Zetterberg? Try not to use age as the deciding factor. I don't watch enough Pens games, so I can't give a straight-shooter answer without being biased. Please give a few reasons, like Datsyuk's Selke Trophy or Malkin's size. Rick Detroit This is an excellent and difficult question, Rick. In the end, it would probably come down to personal preference of styles and intangibles, since the talent level is so close. I still believe Sidney Crosby is the NHL's most perfect union of raw skill, intellect and desire. That being the case, when it is close, I would be inclined to take the equation that involves No. 87. Inexperience is simply not a factor when you are more evolved than everyone else. See: Tiger Woods. Back Crosby up with a one-on-one talent like Malkin, who has one of the hardest shots in the league and also has a high hockey IQ, and that is a difficult tandem to top. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are right in that ballpark, if not neck and neck. Datsyuk has the uniqueness and flair of Crosby. He lacks the physical play Crosby exhibits around the net of the opposing goalie, but he is better at defensively stripping opponents of the puck and has that knack to know when to hover and when to pounce. Datsyuk would be very adept at killing wild game if he put his mind to it. I could see him killing raccoons with ease. Malkin is actually very good at puck stripping, as well; his long reach will one day make him one of the league's best two-way players. Malkin is like Manny Ramirez in that he doesn't really have a desperation button, so there are times he appears to disappear or to not be giving his all-out best. Malkin took a pounding in the Flyers series. The Red Wings have tough players, but I think Malkin will be more comfortable against Detroit. Still, the talent level of the Red Wings' defense is light years ahead of the Flyers'. Zetterberg is a complete player who is hybrid efficient. He can create, score and provide the spectacular. His goal-scoring rate does not change in the postseason. I love that. That means his game has depth. The Penguins must have Sergei Gonchar on the ice as much as possible against Zetterberg and Datsyuk. The snippet that makes this discussion a bit frayed is Zetterberg and Datsyuk largely play together, which perhaps doesn't give us a true measurement of how much they make teammates better. Crosby and Malkin occasionally are put on the same line to give the Penguins a different look, but the Penguins are most dynamic when these two players are rolling shift after shift, making their linemates better and getting good matchups with the opposing team's defensemen. Because of their youth and ability to heal and stay energetic, this is a potent twosome, especially at home. I know you said not to take age in account, but energy, health and speed are such an integral part of playoff hockey, it has to be considered. Hockey is a young man's game. Maurice Richard was 23 when he scored 50 goals in 50 games in the 1944-45 season. Bobby Orr was 22 when he scored 120 points and flew through the air to win his first Stanley Cup in 1970. Wayne Gretzky was 21 when he went 92-120-212 in the 1981-82 campaign. Additionally, young players today have so much big-time experience in high-pressure situations like the world juniors, they are better trained at not letting big-time moments bother them. My preference is the Penguins' duo because of No. 87, but for the most part, these four players cancel each other out as their identical playoff point totals show. The Cup will be won by the supporting cast." from: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2008...&id=3405758

Glad to see that there has been a reasonable discourse taking place, and if I can add my dos centavos: Talking about who had an easier schedule -- out the window, comparing regular season, or playoff stats -- out the window, comparing head to head match ups (hasn't happened in over a hundred games) -- laughable to say the least. I have grown tired of the idea that anything in hockey is actually predictable. I do believe, as do some people who I have talked with who have been Pens fans for 10, 12, and 20 years that the Red Wings look to have the Pens out-matched, and will (I say should) win the series; the thing about hockey (and perhaps what I love most) is that being there means you might win (dare I say -- have a chance). Three bounces can determine a series, and the Pens are at least good enough that they can get some bounces. Pens fans: I welcome you because your team embodies the kind of sportmanship that I love to see in hockey. Your team works hard, and wins battles. I have come to expect the same level of class from Pens fans, and I know that should you lose you will not complain that "it was a bad call" or "what if..." because your team won't do it. Everyone: the two teams that deserve to be in the Stanley Cup Finals are there, and one of them will win. If you worry too much about winning you just might happen to miss out on some great hockey -- this isn't (likely) going to be a sweep.

I would have been happier to see the Wings bounce back harder, you know "smell blood" but they didn't...