haroldsnepsts

Don't get me wrong, I would too. But depending on what happens this year he may head to greener pastures or will at least want a hefty raise given his responsibilities compared to the guys making more than him.

The only trap is the "name me this" homework that people try to assign thoe who disagree with them, likely because it's easier to criticize someone else's point than make their own. Maybe spend less time telling me what I expect and more time making an actual point regarding Holland and the state of the current Red Wings defense. Kronwall is basically our number on guy, which is a role he's never fulfilled. Then look down the blueline. It's a bunch of spare parts. White is a good d-man, though it'll be interesting to see how he plays without Lids. Plus he's a UFA at the end of this season and currently makes less then Kronwall, Quincey and Ericsson. If this collection of players were on another team, I don't think people would really be complimenting the GM on a job well done. Just because Holland wasn't willing to give up enough for a trade or signing doesn't mean they couldn't ever have happened.

You ignored the part of my post where I said Holland should've had a plan for the post-Lidstrom era years ago. I'm not just talking about last season. Holland being involved in the Suter sweepstakes only revealed the total lack of effective transitioning for Lidstrom's retirement. And Holland is up against the same obstacles as other GM's, yet they somehow manage to land guys. I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have but as I've said it's not just about one deal. It's about a slow decay and tiny adjustments that have become less and less effective. As Babcock said at the end of the last playoffs, the team is moving in the wrong direction. I honestly don't think the team will be terrible this season, but I look at our blueline and wonder what exactly Holland has been thinking.

You make it sound as if Holland had no idea these defensemen were leaving until they were emptying their locker. I'm not saying it should all go without a hitch but look at our defensive corps. Holland had lead time on 2 of the 3. Anyone with half a brain could've figured there's a good chance Lids would retire around 40. And Holland even got to talk to him so I bet he had a pretty good guess as to when Lids would hang them up. Same with Stuart. That situation was known to all of us here. And it wouldn't surprise me if Rafalski gave him some indication as well. Holland should've been considering the defense in a post Lidstrom era years ago. It just reinforces my belief that Holland is a good tinkerer and has succeeded by making tweaks to the team and system he inherited, but as the quality of his replacements continued dropping the system has become less and less effective. Yet there doesn't seem to be any new system or thinking with the type of players he brings in. It just felt like more patchwork to the same old system in spite of so many lesser replacement parts.

I can only assume this is your Andy Kaufman-like commitment to pretending Lilja is a good fighter, because yes it was basically a lot of swing and misses and falling down. I do admire your dedication to this bit though.

If memory serves, that fell in his lap. Hossa's agent called him. Holland thought they had no shot before that. I don't know much about Huskins. Seems like a decent price for what's basically a plug. Obviously the injuries aren't Holland's fault. I don't blame him for that. But going into the season for the Wings to have even a halfway decent defense it required a lot of players stepping up and playing at a higher level than they have. Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Quincey. And that's with everyone healthy. Take one or two guys out and it gets real ugly real fast. That's where we are now, two games into the season. Overall that is on Holland. I don't think he sucks but as I've said before, because the Wings have been so good for so long and transitioned through different eras so successfully, I'm surprised at how unprepared this team looks for Lidstrom's retirement.

I know. It makes me sad for these younger folk who have never seen what an actual decent fighter on the Wings looks llike. Instead they have to settle for years of guys like Lillypads, or fighters at the twilight of their career like May and Downey. Or worse, no fighters at all. While I'm glad Bert fought Weber, it's sad that a 37 year old who hardly drops the gloves had to make Weber answer the bell. Though with GMR it seems like a running joke about Lilja. I give Lilja a lot of credit for basically learning to fight at the NHL level, but he was a pretty terrible fighter. The best he ever fought was a draw, including against Boll. As for Tootoo, I'm glad he'll drop the gloves when called upon. I just hope he actually gives the other guy a chance to square up instead of suckering him as he often does.

Watch it be Doug Janik.

If it were either of those two, I'm going to be extremely pissed. It was no secret that going into the season the defense was already questionable. One or two injuries and it would be a disaster. Two games into the season and here we are.

Thanks for the recaps everybody. I figured the Wings would have a lot of kinks to work out but wouldn't have thought the PK would be such a problem.

So when I left the game the Wings were up 2-0. Then got home just in time to see the shootout. anyone got a recap of how they blew it?

Cmon Brunner. Bob probably has no idea what your tendencies are.

Shouldn't count. That's on a rebound.

He has yet to register his first SOG this season. I'm sure he'll be fine it's just strange.

It just did. Now how about we discuss the game for a change?

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I think a lot of it was rust and short camp, but there were plenty of defensive breakdowns, those were just the worst ones. You don't give up that many shots without a ton of defensive lapses. As I said in the GDT, Dats was even lazy covering his man around the net. If memory serves Jimmy made the save but it led to a great scoring chance and is something you never see from Datsyuk. Kronwall and Smith letting two guys get behind them while on the PK is another ridiculously bad breakdown. And on the third goal Quincey was responsible for it was off a nice deflection when he was right there and should've been tying up his man. Based on their performance the opening game this team really has nowhere to go but up.

Well yes, but that includes last year's playoffs where Hossa only played 2 games before getting brained by Torres early in the third game. The reality is that Mule has had 3 exceptional playoffs and 4 that have been mediocre to bad. Hossa had one tremendous year with Pittsburgh, but has had plenty of good years besides that.

The knock on Quincey has always been a lack of consistency. Playing like a top pairing guy for a stretch, then suddenly looking like a #7 guy . Hopefully he got a lot of that out of his system against the Blues.

Granted I'm not a Tootoo fan but my theory is just that he's still too much of a defensive liability. As the Preds got better and more competitive his defensive lapses weren't worth the energy he brought.

And people overstate Hossa's playoff no show, I'm guessing based on the one season he was in Detroit. He has 97 points in 137 playoff games. Looking through his playoff performances he's hardly a no-show. And it's not exactly apples to apples to compare that to Franzen's three great playoff years. Hopefully for the Wings it was the last two playoffs that were a fluke for Mule and not the 3 before it.

I guess Ericsson's not totally done being the whipping boy here? Of the ways the Wings sucked last night, Ericsson was not even top 10. I really don't understand picking him out as specific problem last night other than old habits die hard. It was Kronners and Smith by the way who let two guys get behind them on the friggin PK on Stewart's goal. That should never happen with Kronwall even strength but is even more embarrassing on the penalty kill. Smith overall did have a very good game though, especially considering he's a rookie.

It's the $60 million question really. As I said before, for years the Wings made up for their lack of size and could beat a strong forecheck by superior skill. But that skill has been declining season after season so their ability to beat it through puck possession and outlet passes has gone away season after season as well. Lids retiring was certainly the biggest hit to that puck possession style. So now what exactly is the system?

And one of the best forechecking teams in the NHL at that.

I think it was definitely a mercy move by Babs and in no way a reflection of Jimmy's play. He was getting shelled out there. It would've been nice if he had stopped one of the breakaways but I don't really fault him. All in all he played well considering he got no help. Z and Dats were held without a shot. Datsyuk was uncharacteristically lazy around his own net a couple times. And Mule had one shot but was mostly invisible except for his fake tough guy act. It is only one game, but when fans are wondering how this team will look in the post-Lidstrom era, this is a nightmare first glimpse.