haroldsnepsts

I guess more than who's at fault of the lockout, I was answering if it would be the same if the Wings started the season with the best players they could find outside of the locked out NHL players.

I'm old enough to have watched Steve Yzerman play his first season as captain. Like I said initially, I've seen the careers of both Fedorov and Datsyuk. And Fedorov was a more dominant player. As for your claims about league scoring: In 1990, Fedorov didn't play in the NHL, so that season doesn't really matter. In 2006 scoring was 6.176 goals per game, in 2007 it was 5.89, in 2009 it was 5.83, so it hasn't always been "well under" 6 goals since then. In 1995 scoring was 5.97 goals per game. In 2006 it was 6.17. 1997 was about equal to 2007 1998, 99, 02, 03, and 04 scoring was lower than it ever has been since the lockout. Like I said, the years where scoring was dramatically different between their two eras is from 1991 to 1994. 4 seasons. And Fedorov spent 7 seasons of his prime playing in an era where scoring was significantly lower than anything Datsyuk has played in. These last two seasons have been approaching the two higher years of the dead puck era. I can understand having the opinion that Datsyuk was the better player, but it doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about just because I disagree with you. And more than just scoring, I'm basing it on watching them play in their respective eras. As I said earlier, Fedorov took over games in ways Datsyuk has only shown flashes of. EDIT: another source I found about average NHL goals by season has the numbers are slightly lower for each season than what I stated but are still the same relative to each year. Everything is just adjusted slightly downward.

Good point. The players are fighting to reduce the amount of money that will be taken from them. None of their proposals ask for an increase in salary. They ask for a smaller reduction.

You're ignoring the height of the clutch and grab era. From 1998 to 2004 the scoring was roughly the same or lower than post lockout. So when Fedorov was 29 thru 35 years old, scoring was at the lowest it had been since the 50s. It's not as simple as saying there was more scoring during Feds time. Scoring was at a low point during some of his prime years. The only seasons scoring was dramatically up in Fedorov's career relative to Datsyuk's was 1991-1994. http://dropyourglove...eagueGoals.aspx

Having watched them both for the entire career, I gotta go with Fedorov. Datsyuk has more crazy moves that leave your jaw on the floor, but he's only shown flashes of the kind of dominance Fedorov had in his prime. He was an incredible skater, good size, great shot. Feds won the hardest slap shot with 101.5 mph and won the fastest skater competition twice. Then there's the hardware. 2 Selke's, Hart, and a Pearson. More than anything though, it's just from watching them both play. Datsyuk is amazing. Fedorov was even better.

I wouldn't be happy that the Red Wings were playing, because they wouldn't be. Guys like Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg and the like are all under contract by the Red Wings. They are Detroit Red Wings hockey players. Besides, no one can match what Dats does out there. Certainly not some replacement player that couldn't crack the NHL except as a scab.

Got a link to verify Fehr rejecting it in spite of the majority of fans and players liking it? Because what actually happened is the union wanted more time than the deadline the league put on it and requested more information. When they weren't given that information from the league, the players voted overwhelmingly to veto realignment. It was a tactic by Bettman to make the union look bad that you apparently bought. He dropped a massive change to the NHL on them, gave them a short deadline to respond, and didn't give them very much info to go on. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=384655 http://www.nhlpa.com...sed-realignment Because the biggest problem facing the league is not player salary but the financial disparity between large and small franchises. That's not the same as them losing money. The union's propsal, while far from perfect, actually acknowledges that disparity problem and tries to address it. The league's proposals involve just taking more from the players. The section I bolded has nothing do to with the NHL's and NHLPA's CBA negotiation or the lockout, which is the topic of this thread. Though it does demonstrate that your opinion is based mostly on your hatred for unions and not what's actually transpiring in this lockout.

This being a thread about the lockout, I thought it was pretty obvious that I was referring to Fehr's role representing the union in the current CBA negotiations. Not about negotiating individual contracts for players and their owners. I have no idea what you are getting at here. The role of unions in professional sports is pretty well established. The part of your post I underlined is an often repeated falsehood, but it's exactly what the league and Bettman want people to repeat. By the standard Forbes used in a report I think made a year ago, 18 clubs had negative operating income before things like taxes and depreciation. It's not as simple as "over half the franchises are losing money." It all depends on what they are including as revenue, for example the agreed upon definition of Hockey Related Revenue (which the owners want to change). Half the problem is figuring out which franchises are really in financial trouble. Second to that is figuring out exactly why. It's not up to the players to make sure these owners turn a profit. It's not up to the players to make a franchise in Phoenix successful for Bettman. While the players length of the CBA was wrong, the idea of slowing their growth to notch down their percentage of revenue is a good one. But with the massive reduction and other contract stipulations the owner wanted, it was pretty clearly a money grab that would only have a chance at working if they locked the players out and broke their will again.

Fehr's job is to keep the players from getting completely screwed over by the owners and get a fair deal. I wouldn't say he's failed yet. Per the NHL constitution Bettman's job is (emphasis mine): 7 years ago the players agreed to a salary cap and a 24% rollback of their salaries. Since then revenue has increased by 50%. Bettman and the owners initial proposal for this CBA required the players to cut their salaries 11% and got rid of almost any contract conditions favorable to players. UFA status, rookie contracts, signing bonuses, arbitration. As someone in the press said at the time, the NHL's offer wasn't a negotiation, it was a declaration of war on the players union. Since then, the league has only taken baby steps away from that ridiculous initial proposal. All this when the league as a whole is profitable and poised to make other great leaps forward in the popularity of the game. For the players union to respond in kind, their initial proposal should have been getting rid of the cap. Then their initial concessions could be allowing the cap, but they get 63% of revenue instead of 57%

That's the thing Bettman is counting on. That the fans love hockey more than they hate his guts.

It's telling that the league would say that less than 24 hours after saying there was no point in meeting.

It's staggering that in spite of a 50% increase in revenue since the last CBA 7 years ago earning the league over a billion dollars more in revenue, there's a lockout. This should have been the least dramatic of all CBA negotiations.

I just have to say, that's an awesome avatar.

Buck Fettman.

In spite of how successful this thread has been, all members are locked out until you give into the mods demands. Official Lockout Thread here: http://www.letsgowin...lockout-thread/

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405331 The deadline is expected to pass without any formal announcement. The season will apparently die a slow, quiet death.

Doesn't sound like there is, but I'm not sure. Everything I've read makes it sound like the owners get paid $200 million from NBC even if there is no hockey. http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/08/nhl_owners_will_receive_200_mi.html

As a result of the lockouts under Bettman's reign, Wings fans have missed: 1994-95: 35 games for a 29 year old Yzerman, 24 year old Fedorov, 24 year old Lidstrom, and a 27 year old Konstantinov. 2004-05: 82 games for a 39 year old Yzerman, 34 year old Lidstrom, 36 year old Shanahan, 26 year old Pavel Datsyuk, 23 year old Zetterberg. Both Z and Dats led the Wings with 85 and 87 points when the league resumed games the next season. Shanny scored 40 goals and 81 points. Lids won the Norris. 2012-13: ??? games for a 34 year old Datsyuk, 31 year old Zettberg, 32 year old Franzen, 29 year old Jimmy Howard. Over his 20 year career, Lidstrom missed only 46 games, including playoffs. Because of the lockouts under Bettman, Lidstrom missed an additional 117 games. Thankfully he decided to retire this year so we were saved the heartache of him deciding to come back for another season, only for there not to be a season. Obviously these are only a few highlighted Wings players and don't even include potential playoff games in 05, but you get the idea. Careers are short, prime years even shorter. All the scoring records in the Bettman era should have an asterisk because of the games lost.

Staying in phoenix per Dreger: https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger and TSN. http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=405237

Dreger is guessing his contract will include a signing bonus due to the impending lockout. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up and for how much.

Does he have a nickname, like Coca Cola or something? Because there's no way I'm gonna be able to spell that correctly on a regular basis.

As the highest pick the Wings have had in years, I was hoping for even more than that from Kindl. But last season he couldn't even outplay Commie for a spot in the lineup.

It's funny that the owners voted to lock the players out for "cost certainty" while at the very same time you know a handful of them were throwing piles of money at him in the Doan sweepstakes.

I think the owners are grossly overestimating their position and are misplaying this badly. As has been said, the NHL has seen a 50% increase in revenue under this last CBA. It made over a billion more dollars in 7 years! Because of the NBC deal, there were more games on tv than I can ever remember. A team in a huge but traditionally non-hockey market just won the Stanley Cup for the first time in its history. In spite of that they make their outrageous proposal and have only taken baby steps off of it, pretty much guaranteeing a lockout, killing all the momentum the NHL has right now. It's like 1994 all over again.

I haven't heard any of the players play "the victim card." Sidney Crosby of all people spoke pretty well regarding the matter, acknowledging the amount of money involved is kind of mind boggling but that there's principles involved. I think it's important to remember is this that hockey is entertainment. Players are a very elite talent, most who have short careers, and are the stars that people pay money to see. It's about getting what they feel is their fair share of the billions of dollars in revenue generated by them playing the game.