haroldsnepsts

You can't really just pull any name from the list because they've played for Detroit at some time. Well, I guess you can, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. Hasek shouldn't really be counted on an all time Red Wings list. He played less than 200 regular season games for Detroit. Of course he's one of the greatest goaltenders to ever play the game, but if you look at his whole career, most people wouldn't think of him as a Red Wing. And Doug Harvey? He played 2 games for the Red Wings. The other Red Wings on that list were great players, but I think it's difficult to compare such vastly different eras. Back then it was 6 teams (4 of which made the playoffs), 60-70 games a season, and drinking beer was considered off season training. The level of competitiveness just wasn't as high and I think nostalgia also tends to lead to ranking guys from the original 6 days higher on "all time" lists. Yzerman as top 5 all time Red Wings is a pretty easy argument to make. And even top 3 is within reason.

Could you quote the part of my post where I said I'd take Yzerman over Lemieux? My point with the 155 points was that he was one of three guys to do it, the other two being Gretzky and Lemieux. Not exactly known as two way forwards either. Of course Mario is higher all time than Stevie. He's one of the best to ever play the game. In my post I listed Yzerman's accomplishments and meant I would rank him higher (as in closer to #1, not a higher value number) than 30-40, where you said he is.

so they knocked two years off it? It's still cap circumvention. I guess now it's just more in line with the existing contracts that circumvent the cap.

Hell, some team should've picked him up cheap for the shootouts alone. I wonder how many more points Detroit would've had the last few years if they had Kozlov in for shootouts. It's pretty much a guaranteed goal.

Yzerman is 6th all time scoring in NHL history,one of 3 players to ever score 155 points in a season (guess who the other two are), three Stanley Cups, Pearson, Conn Smythe, Selke, and an Olympic Gold Medal. People talk about how much more Lemieux would have done without the bad back and cancer. Wonder what Yzerman would've done with a good knee for the last 15 years of his career. 30-40 seems a bit low. This just in, Stevie gives Canada the Order of Yzerman. Country bows and feels unworthy.

Umm, isn't that pretty much a difference maker? You're hilarious dude. He's not the difference maker. He's just the one who was part of that element that made the difference? That'd be impressive since he works for the Hawks. Because we're talking about Drapes now, not under Bowman. Hey, thanks for the personal attack. For the record I didn't give your post a minus. Apparently there are people here who are less a fan of them than I am. And another one! cheers! That's airtight logic. The Wings have done well, therefore Draper's contract is a good one. Do you seriously not see the flaws with that line of thinking?

Remember March 26, 1997? Don't you think that had something to do with uniting the Wings and helping them get past the Avs to win the Cup? Because the players do. They had plenty of offensive talent years before that, but couldn't get it done. It takes all sorts of players fulfilling different roles and creating team chemistry. It's not the oversimplified example you just used of more offense = better team. Besides, Asham is not an enforcer. He's more of a grinder who will fight and can score some goals. And as I've beat to death, this is not a deal that would've made or broken the Wings. Just a gritty player who the Pens got for cheap. Would've been nice if Detroit could pick up a guy like Asham.

That's part of it. Draper isn't relied upon for faceoffs like he used to be. He took 319 in 81 games last season. 1 more than Abdelkader took in 50 games. And Abdelkader only lost 17 more draws than Drapes. Not bad for a rookie.

Agreed. Though as for the 4 on 4 OT, I'd take that for 10 minutes if it meant not having the shootout. It is at least in the spirit of the game and not a skill competition. Having the players jump through rings of fire would be pretty exciting too, but it's no way to decide a hockey game.

It started that way, but then that poster actually got into a civil discussion about the lineup, in my opinion. Most of this thread has not been about what you've just said, that it actually isn't like those signings. I think that would've been a pretty short discussion. EDIT: and to be honest, I'm sure there's an element of all of us turning on each other out of boredom waiting for the season to start, when there's really stuff to fight about.

First off, no every player isn't important to a Cup victory. It's great if they are, but typically there's a couple guys at least who weren't difference makers. Second, that's called sarcasm, sport. My very next sentence I refer back to where I said Drapes was earning his contract in '08. And there it is. One quote from Babcock, so how could we ever question the Wings?? You keep talking about how that extra money couldn't have gotten the Wings anyone else. The Wings are tight against the cap. Maybe you don't understand how the cap works, but it's not like any money saved from Drapes contract would have to be used one to one for another player. It's about the total cap space, and I bet Holland would love to have every dollar he could get to work with. Blink indeed. So you're saying his contract was "brilliant" then, but he's overpaid now? That doesn't make a lick of sense. How can the same contract be brilliant and overpaid? Again, if you had read what I previously wrote, I said a contract should be evaluated on its full term. Not just on a season by season basis. Because of course these guys are going to be worth it on the front end. That's pretty ironic considering you missed that I was kidding. Read the sentences directly after the one about Drapers points. You're great at putting words in my mouth and inventing arguments so you can shoot them down.

I'm not acting like I'm being repressed. There's actually been some good conversations going on in here, like between GMR and mindfly. Speaking only for myself, sure it would've been nice to pick up Asham for 700k. But I'm not saying he's getting the Wings to the Cup or it's an either or situation with Modano. It's all the people jumping into the thread who've made it that. There's a pretty large gap between saying you'd want a player on the team and that player would make the difference in winning the Cup. But that's a common argument for shooting it down. "xxxx player is not going to be the difference to get the Wings to the Cup." And the prevailing argument has also become "do you know more than Holland?" Of course none of us know more about running a franchise than Holland. But it's about being a fan of the team. Analyzing and overanalyzing every move and throwing our two cents in. That's why this forum exists. The Draper thing was really an aside which has derailed this thread even more. As I said, I'm a big Draper fan, but Holland was overly optimistic about his contributions to the team when he signed that contract. Or maybe he didn't have enough faith in kids like Helm to replace him.

In what sport can guys punch each other in the face until they're too tired to swing anymore, and their only punishment is to sit for five minutes? I don't care what other sports do really. I love hockey. Shootouts are awful.

The Wings don't need a vocal leader who doesn't contribute much on the ice. That's called the coaching staff. yes, I think Draper's 4 points in the 08 playoffs are what put us over the top. He certainly contributed more then than he does now. But I'm not quickly forgetting. If you read my post, I said his contract fit his contributions in 08. But you're trying to justify his current pay for things he's done in the past. That's a pretty good example of why it's a bad contract. They signed him for too much or too long. You're grasping at straws now with nonsensical arguments. Did his contract keep the Wings from making it to the SCF? who knows? how could you ever prove that? Maybe it kept them from winning their second Cup? prove it didn't. The point isn't to pick specific players that his contract has prevented us from getting. That's all speculation. I don't see how you can look at his role on the team these last few seasons and think he's worth that money. But god forbid someone criticize Red Wings management. This thread started not even so much as criticism, but more, "would've been nice to have him" until all the cheerleaders jumped in.

Well, you've got hyperbole down pat. Draper's contract was brilliant? Even at a cap hit of 1.65 million, since the 08 season he's scored 17, 17, and 22 points. and was -2, -13 and -2. He plays 15 minutes or less and isn't a key faceoff guy and wasn't relied upon to kill penalties. In 08 maybe his cap hit fit his contributions, but it was on overall overpayment from the start. Especially since they knew even if he retired Detroit would be stuck with his cap hit. I love Drapes, but he's been on the gravy train since he re-signed. The contract should be evaluated based on its full term. Not just the years it's favorable.

So to you, Modano is the difference between the Wings having one of the deepest offenses in the league or having a forward lineup that's weak as hell?? Think that's overstating it a bit? And we're going to lose assets either way. Williams is injury prone and plays without heart. Detroit knew this. And he never was going to get as many minutes as he did on the crappy teams where he put up points. Even though Detroit gave him ample time on the PP because of his right handed shot. Yes, the leg break was unfortunate, but Williams was a bad signing. Likely a desperate one when Holland lost Sammy and Hudler. And you're forgetting Draper, unless you're thinking he'll retire and the Wings will take the cap hit. That was also a bad contract by Holland.

This is getting blown out of proportion by all the people condemning this thread. Modano is 40. He has no upside either. But hopefully he'll bring something this season. Same could be said for Asham for a couple seasons. Modano was a -6, -13, and -11 his last three seasons. Helms is a career -11 in 3 seasons in the NHL. I'm not saying this is an either or situation between two players. But the aspects you mention aren't enough to rule a guy out. I don't think anyone really thinks Asham would make or break the Wings. But he's a guy who was had cheap who brings some elements the Wings could use. That's it. cheap signing. good player for the money. Maybe would've been nice to see him on the 4th line. Didn't happen. Oh well.

There aren't enough minuses possible on this board for this post. And for those who may be too young to know, McCartney had a band after The Beatles called Wings.

I don't hate Lebda or anything, but I'm glad he's no longer a part of the Wings defense. It will be interesting to see how he fares in Toronto. Especially if he picks up more minutes, which I'm guessing he will for what they're paying him.

Do you even understand what his argument is? I don't remember him calling Asham a savior. I've just seen him make a reasonable argument for how he would be a good addition to the 4th line and bring some aspects to it that it doesn't have. People here keep acting like GMR is making a huge deal about this. Doesn't look like he is to me. Can we no longer be disappointed about not getting players we like to play for the Wings? Instead you guys are exaggerating how upset he is in order to try and contradict his statements. And let's be serious. The Williams signing was bad even without the leg break.

I agree. Asham would've been a nice little addition and for cheap. In these threads about adding grit people always make the argument that guys who will hit, fight, and aren't total goons aren't out there to be had, at least not for cheap. Asham is a good example of a guy that was. And I have to admire your dedication in this thread GMR, but it's a lost cause dude. If Holland had signed Asham, there would be a 20 page thread about how great the guy is and what a positive addition to the team he is. Because he signed elsewhere, most of what you're going to get is how Holland knows what he's doing and Asham is useless. Obviously we don't know if Holland ever contacted him or Asham ever would've played here. But he's a guy who was had for cheap that would've made a team better. That seems worth commenting on. This place has become such a Red Wings cheerleading camp sometimes. Talking about this s*** doesn't mean you hate the Wings or think Holland is a bad GM. It's a hockey forum. It's not like he was saying Holland was a terrible GM or the Wings suck. Just pointing out someone who was out there and being disappointed we didn't get him, when the argument is often made these guys don't exist or will cost too much.

Than a kid who's played 3 NHL games? I should hope so. But Lebda is a known quantity. And that quantity is not a very good one. At least with Kindl there's potential. And hope.

Regarding Primeau, I don't think he was nearly as much of a scapegoat as Cujo. Expectations were high for Primeau for sure though. He was drafted third overall (ahead of Jagr), and never really lived up to that promise. It wasn't just the one bad season in '96. He actually only really had one good playoff year in Detroit in 95. Previous to that he hadn't scored a goal in the postseason in '92, 93 or 94 (in 25 playoff games). I think by 96 people in Detroit had just grown weary of watching him make a strong move to the net, only to lose an edge or the puck or both and go crashing into the net. Primeau wasn't bad. He just never turned into the player in Detroit they hoped he would be.

You pretty much just confirmed the whole point of this thread. You can always highlight one play and say that would've changed everything. That doesn't make it true. What if Robitaille hadn't shot 2 inches lower so he didn't hit the crossbar? In 4 games against the Ducks, here was Detroit's goal production from their star players. Fedorov 1, Hull 0, Shanahan 1, Lidstrom 0, Holmstrom 1, Robitaille 1, Yzerman 0. Jason Wooley had as many goals as Sergei Fedorov. I won't bother to dig up the salaries those guys were making at the time, but you get the point. Cujo played plenty well enough to win. Detroit just got beat by a team that wanted it more against a coach that knew how to maximize what assets his team had.

Hitting is not the same as grit. Note that Philadelphia, which is a gritty team to the point of some here saying they were goonish, ranked 14th in hits. Sure hitting has something to do with the other, but when people are wanting the Wings to be gritty, I don't think that means they're just wanting them to run around and hit guys more. If you look through any of the grit threads most of the talk isn't about hitting. That blog is bad statistical analysis used to prove an idea the author already seemed to have in mind. If you asked anyone is there a direct correlation between hits and points, I think most people would say no. He mentions some anomalies, but doesn't explain situations like with LA who was 2nd in hits and 27th in points in 2009, then only dropped three places to 5th in hits but jumped all the way up to 9th in points. There's too many other variables outside his oversimplified premise for it to mean anything.