haroldsnepsts

Wow. what a softie.

Our goalies giving up juicy rebounds and the opposing forwards able to skate into the crease virtually untouched. It's been that way all season.

That was a good scoring chance given to the sharks because Sammy couldn't gain the zone and threw off all his linemates as he turned the puck over. Jesus. just dump it in if you have to.

nice dive there by the sharks. Good to see Lids playing physical on Thornton

good point. Yeah, I guess with a groin injury you never really know how long it's going to be, so it's a gamble given the cap situation. This is off topic (though somewhat related in my bitter opinion) but why has Chelios been scratched the last two games? He's off LTIR, but is he still injured? or a healthy scratch? EDIT: Just saw in the GDT that Cheli is a healthy scratch. Gee, it's sure good to have him back and taking up a roster spot.

Didn't see this posted in the thread yet: If it's really been affecting him for two weeks, my questions is, shouldn't they have done something about it earlier? It's not like he was playing stellar in spite of his injury. And once again the Wings are up against the cap and will have to make some creative moves with their roster. EDIT: forgot linky http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/12/as...ods_been_p.html

Off topic, but every time I see this thread title, I hear it to the tune of "what do you do with a drunken sailor."

Honestly I think both Ozzy and Conklin have been hot and cold. Ozzy looked particularly bad last night, but usually combines some amazing saves with some total brain farts. Same goes for Conks. He doesn't give me a lot more confidence. Agree about defense. Though I would specify it's team defense, not just the defenseman. Bad turnovers and bad linechanges have played a big factor. This whole damn team has been hot and cold, except maybe offensively speaking.

No kidding. The Kings have one-tenth the talent, but ten times the heart of the Red Wings this season.

what a craptacular game. Usually the goalie bashing here is out of hand, but Ozzy really did have a bad game tonight. Even on the saves he made, he looked lost. Plus turning the puck over behind the net. The Wings were equally lost. Pucks in skates, cutesy passes, horrible turnovers, not fighting for the puck in the corner. Once again their potent offense kept it close. The Wings were outworked by the Avs, who deserved this win. The Colorado players were getting bodies in front of shots, sticks in passing lanes, and winning the battles in the corner. And they got great goaltending from Raycroft. The Wings had none of that.

How exactly are they doing that? I haven't seen any quotes from anyone affiliated with the Stars that links Avery's douchebaggery to their problems winning games. Actually, you guys in this thread are the main ones I've seen making that connection. Even the articles I've read point out that the Star's main problems winning games have little to do with Avery. And you complain about the Stars criticizing Avery to the press, but also point out how there wasn't a peep out of them earlier, when there clearly was problems. So you're condemning them both for keeping it under wraps, and now complaining publicly? How should they have handled it when they've been having problems with Avery, then he pulls off that rehearsed move and gets suspended by the league. He made it a public issue. Not them. You can say that the Stars are acting holier than thou, but it looks more to me like you guys are making Avery some sort of martyr for all that's wrong with the league.

Bertuzzi has nothing to do with this conversation. He's a guy that made one terrible decision. Otherwise I wouldn't say he's a dirty player. However, did you see my earlier post about Chelios? Did you watch him early in his career? The comparison to Pronger is a valid one. And Pronger only dishes out dirty hits once in a while too. He doesn't play "his entire game with intent to injure." Let's be serious. If he played as dirty as you guys make it sound every single game, even Pronger would be out of the league. Chelios played similarly earlier in his career, but some of it was pre-Bettman era, and in general they weren't cracking down on guys like they are now with suspensions. I'll repeat the little stat about our beloved Cheli, who only "dishes out dirty hits once in a while." When he won the Norris in 1993, he racked up 282 penalty minutes in 84 games, which is an average of 3.36 minutes per game. Seven times in his career Cheli had 150 PIMS or more. Three of those seasons he had more than 200 PIMS. The best Pronger has ever managed was in 1998 when he racked up 180, otherwise he's never been over 150. I don't know if you guys watched Chelios earlier in his career or not, but the difference between him and Pronger is not as big as you make it. Chelios played with an edge and often played dirty. And if you think he's never done anything like Pronger. Once you get through the part of the video where they cart Brian Propp of the ice on a stretcher, you'll see a young Chris Chelios come in with a flying elbow a la Pronger. More on how Chelios is not as different from Pronger as you would like to believe. Season of Suspensions: Known for rough play throughout his NHL career, Chelios sat out eight games during the 1993-94 season as a result of his on-ice behavior. He earned the first suspension for abusing linesman Bernard DeGrace at 3:19 of the third period during Chicago's Oct. 14, 1993, game vs. Hartford. DeGrace had been restraining Chelios after breaking up Chelios' fight with Brian Propp, when Chelios pushed DeGrace aside so that he could join another fight involving Brian Noonan and Adam Burt. Chelios got two game misconducts, a 10-minute misconduct, a fighting major and an instigating minor from referee Kerry Fraser. The NHL announced an indefinite suspension on Oct. 15, 1993, and held a hearing into the matter on Oct. 18, 1993, when it set the suspension at four games. Four months later, Chelios was suspended by the NHL a second time, also for four games, and fined $500 by for scratching Dana Murzyn's eye in a fight at the end of the second period during Chicago's Feb. 2, 1994, game at Vancouver. http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1981/81040.html

So he's 4th on the team in points, but somehow isn't valuable to the team?? And he's an RFA, so we're not talking about the open market. Best a team could do is make an offer sheet. If the Wings didn't match, they'd be compensated with picks. Again, so the guy who's 4th on the team in scoring somehow isn't valuable, so we should trade him for a goalie who's struggling and has a cap hit of $5.7 mill, to replace our goalie who is struggling and has a cap hit of 1.4 mill? So Hudler and Ozzy (who I guess we'd have to waive or something) totals $2.5 million. where's the other $3.2 mill in cap space going to come from? Do you not see some serious problems with your logic here? Unless you were joking and I missed your sarcasm, because of threads like this one.

Ok. So he'll just have to settle for his Hart and Norris I guess. Edit: and for what it's worth, much like Pronger, I mostly hated Chelios because he was dirty, not because he was so talented. The Chelios comparison is an appropriate one. "Chelios won his second Norris Trophy in 1993 after racking up a career-high 282 penalty minutes in 84 games, an average of 3.36 minutes per contest." http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/1776...s-timeline.html He would've gotten more suspensions had the NHL been cracking down on them early in his career like they are now. (Of note, Cheli has 2,873 PIMs. during the early 90s, he had more than 200 PIMs three years in a row).

Plus if Edmonton won the Cup in '06, he almost certainly would've had a Conn Smythe too. He was a beast in the playoffs that year.

My point was we've had players on the Wings that have a dirty element to their game. I wasn't saying Hatcher was some great player who played on the Wings so we should get Pronger. Pronger is ten times the player Hatcher is.

You're kidding right? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Are you saying bringing in Pronger in place of Rafalski is a downgrade?

I'll give you dirty, but how is he arrogant? Every interview I've seen with the guy he was surprisingly articulate and humble. I mean, seriously surprisingly so. He's one of the more articulate hockey players I've heard. He talks about the game but doesn't say the same crap all the time. And there aren't plenty of great defenseman. Pronger is top five in the league.

Exactly. He's easy to hate. The cheapshots, the gap toothed grin... But he's a great defenseman. I'd be pretty excited if the Wings signed him. Let the other team fear him for a change. And like you pointed out, it's not like they haven't had players like him on their roster before. Anyone remember Hatcher? If Lids decides to retire at the end of his contract in 2010, that also happens to be the same time Pronger becomes a UFA. Just sayin'...

To me it seems like because Dallas is already having serious problems, the last thing they want to spend time dealing with is Sean Avery. He's not the problem (well, not the biggest one anyway), but he's certainly a distraction for a team that desperately needs to get its act together.

Has someone said Avery was the cause of all their issues?

No kidding. Why must people constantly fixate on who is the Starter? Like they get a letter on their sweater or wear a cape. With Ozzy and Conklin, it was always going to be a relatively close split in number of games. Neither one of them is playing particularly well at the moment, if one of them needs to start a few in a row or sit a few in a row, so be it.

I had posted an article earlier about how during his time with the Kings Avery ripped on Dustin Brown mercilessly, among other people, until it led to fist fights in the lockerroom. After the year of the French Canadian incident, allegedly calling Laraque a monkey, and getting into a profanity-filled tirade with a Ducks announcer, the GM said he was on "double secret probation." He was suspended by the team near the end of his stay there. As for the Rangers, I'm not really sure. I didn't follow him that closely there, but it seemed relatively quiet, minus the stick waving thing and having his name show up in a hooker's phonebook. They didn't re-sign him though, in spite of him playing well for the Rags. It sounds like from early on in Dallas he was not really a part of the team. That's not all on him, but I'm guessing a lot of it is that the team is struggling and Avery seems more interested in his attention than winning hockey games.

Don't get me wrong, relatively speaking I still think TO is high maintenance. But he's gotten a lot better and become more of a teamplayer than the total *sshole he used to be. Whereas it sounds like Avery is pretty much a disruption to every lockeroom he's been in, and doesn't have near the talent Owens does to make teams want to put up with him. EDIT: Just when I say TO has improved, the drama continues. http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nfceast/0-6-98/...et-meeting.html

Honestly, I think you're #1 answer isn't quite right. It's more about whether letting his comments go or suspend him are good or bad for hockey. There's a lot of things that may draw more fans but would be terrible for the game. As for the second, I think it was blown way out of proportion. And the Stars players likely wouldn't have talked about it as much because they wouldn't have been questioned about it over and over. Ultimately I think the league overreacted, but if Avery doesn't play in the NHL again (which honestly would be a surprise to me if he didn't), it's his own damn fault. Not Bettman's. He's like Terrel Owens, minus the level of talent that makes people want to put up with someone like TO. Though honestly these days comparing TO to Avery is an insult to Owens. Owen has become a much better team player than he was in the past, and toned down the antics.