haroldsnepsts

oops, I said hernia? I meant appendectomy. Still that seems really fast, even arthroscopically.(sp?) I dont know that it's the trade pressure. Maybe it's because he's our only enforcer.

Suddenly we're agreeing. What the hell happened?! I don't know that I could sort out the top three among those guys. But I agree with the list, especially Thornton and Iginla being down a notch or two.

that's no excuse! I still don't get how he could possible be back by Friday after having hernia surgery.

I never thought you were bagging on Lecavalier, for the record. I was just stating my case. And honestly you started by saying Dats was most complete in the league and smartest, and a few other absolutes. I agree that Dats absolutely has the ability to do more things better than most players, perhaps the only exception being speaking English.

If you really believe that, there's no point in arguing with you. Because that's a totally illogical conclusion. It's overlooking so many variables, it's ridiculous. By your reasoning, what exactly happened to Datsyuk in '04 then? Because he was a +20 the previous season. And a +22 the season after it, and has never finished lower than a +20 since then. Did he just forget how to play defensively for that one season? +/- can be somewhat informative, but honestly can be an extremely misleading or overused stat. If you don't know that, I don't know what to tell you. Player to player on the same team, it can be useful, but still doesn't come close to telling the whole story. Or if a whole team has a great plus minus, it tells you something about that team. But think of how it's figured. If you're on the ice, even if you just hopped over the boards in a shift change when a goal was scored, minus 1. Or the other way. you tripped over the blueline and sprawled out on your stomach for half the shift, but someone on your team scores. +1. so your defensive game just got better, by your reasoning I guess. You may have noticed that I never said AO is the best goal scorer. He's a great one for sure. or that Vinny is a better goal scorer (I'm assuming you mean better than Dats), because it is dependent on the team.

Number of Selke votes do not equal a player's defensive ability. Doesn't anyone watch games anymore instead of using votes and stats? Lecavalier is a very good two way player. Tampa bay was awful last year, remember? Last place in the league. And overall they were one of the worst defensively. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet that no one has even gotten a sniff of the Selke when they were on the worst team in the league with a terrible plus minus. None of that means that Lecavalier is not a good defensive forward.

Well said. honestly I don't know I really could trade Dats or Z for Vinny or Iginla, but it'd be hard not to. As for the homer argument, I think what did it for me was the hyperbole. Stating absolutely that Dats is the most complete player in the game, and the smartest. Plus coming off the walls with the puck more than anyone ever on any team. It's obviously not a ridiculous argument to say Dats is one of the best in the league, I just think it's funny that in the last year Gordie has turned into a Datsyuk slappy.

So you can't point out any weaknesses in Z's game, but he is 2nd to dats because you think so. There you go. You think Dats is best in the league because Dats is best in the league. but I'm supposed to shut you up using empirical evidence? And stats are hardly reality. You want someone to shut you up by showing you who is the most complete player in the league by using stats, which is bulls***. Because those are all influenced by the players around them. If you're talking about the most complete player it's going to have to be opinion based mostly on watching them because you're talking about trying to isolate their abilities from their teammates. If the Wings traded away a ton of talent, or had a bunch of injuries, or whatever and sucked for a year, but Datsyuk played as his usual self, would he suddenly not be a great player? I keep coming back to Lecavalier, because I think he's one to make a strong argument for. 6'4" 220 lbs. 28 years old. He can score he can pass. Cannon for a slapshot. physical hard nose player who will drop the gloves if necessary. Good leadership. They have different styles but taking it all into consideration I think you could call Lecavalier as complete a player as Datsyuk, at least.

that's the heart of it. have you been hanging out with eva? Because you've made questionable statements based on misuse of statistics. If you can put up 100 points and you're a minus player, that alone says nothing about a player's defensive game. It's reading waaaay to much into what is mostly a team stat. Comparing +/- to players across teams usually is meaningless. As I mentioned before, Lecavalier is a very good two-way player. But he was -17 last season. So by your reasoning he must have awful defensive abilities compared to Crosby, who was +18, right?

oooh, the irony... Datsyuk doesn't have any glaring weaknesses in his game. If Datsyuk is the best, then what is the weakness in Zetterberg's game exactly? And you can use the Selke to rule out everyone else's defensive game, but it was Datsyuk's gaudy takeaway stat that put him over the top more than anything. A great defensive player on a great defensive team. The trouble with saying someone is the most complete player in the league is it has to do with the team as well. You put Vinnie Lecavalier on the Wings, he's going to be as complete as Datsyuk and Z, plus being more physical, having a cannon of a slapshot, dropping the gloves when necessary, and bringing leadership. Lecavalier is already a very good two-way player and thats' on friggin' Tampa Bay. Can you imagine if he had been brought up in the Detroit system like Datsyuk had? If he had the great defensemen and two-way forwards that Detroit has? Right now he's a great player on an awful team. you arguing the homer philosophy is hilarious. There are a high percentage of dumbs***s across hfboards, but there are also a lot of informed hockey fans. And all the dumbs***s from every team tend to cancel each other out, and you can get a sense for a more league wide opinion. I know, I know. When someone here disagrees with you about a Wings player, it's because they're a homer. When it's you though, it's the fans from around the league who are nitwits.

I don't think an all around forward has to fight (though it's a plus if they can drop the gloves if needed), but I think hitting should be a factor, which Datsyuk does.

I assume you're talking about the 6 fights in '06? The best part is one of those fights was Maltby, so it wasn't really a fight. And another was Cory Cross!

I agree about the bias, but "or" is the key word here. talk about trading Datsyuk or Zetterberg for Crosby, and there's things to debate and consider. But the thread title says Datsyuk "&" Zetterberg, which would be nuts.

Since Gordie is fond of doing this himself, I'm gonna have to call a slappy a slappy. Or more on point, if Gordie is saying Datsyuk's the most complete forward in the league, I'm calling him a homer. He may not have been to begin with, but he certainly is now. Post some of those statements about Datsyuk on hfboards where there's a league-wide perspective and see if everyone agrees. Dats is definitely one of the best forwards in the league, but this thread has gone off-topic into a love fest based on a post that was about defensive play using bad statistics. Why not just rename it "Datsyuk is the greatest!"

It's early yet. But if Downey and McCarty weren't able to crack the lineup, I could easily see the Wings having less than 5 on the season.

So let's just close down the forums until some season when we don't win a Cup. Then I guess all our opinions and speculation will be valid again.

I don't want to rehash this whole argument, but actually I think Madden should've won. But I will agree that Zetterberg is overall a slightly better defensive forward than Datsyuk. Like with offense, Datsyuk's style is more flashy. Watching him constantly strip guys of the puck is almost comical. As others have pointed out, Datsyuk is great in the offensive and neutral zones, which is good, but to me is less important than when the puck is in your own end. And in the absolute clutch situations, like a 5-on3 in the Stanley Cup finals against Crosby, Babcock goes with Z. Honestly I would guess that part of it is that Dats is better hitting on open ice and pickpocketing on open ice, but Zetterberg is better when it comes to battling down low in the defensive zone. And honestly I don't understand how people can give more important to the offensive and neutral zones when we're talking about who is better defensively, especially since a big part of being a great defensive forward is killing penalties, which is done mostly in your own zone. The original post almost seemed an attempt to make Datsyuk far and away the best defensive player using bad statistical analysis. I'm guessing the debate will rage on in the thread.

The fact that you have Zetterberg sixth on the list, below Franzen and Samuelsson, shows that there are some serious flaws in your premise and your analysis. Statistically recorded hits, blocked shots, and takeaways do not equal defensive ability. Even when you include the "intangibles" it's still flawed. As you point out, Flip and Franzen are still way too high.

Agreed. That would've been my top choice. Instead I picked Sammy's aim, because I don't think the others are really the big issues right now.

In Probert's prime bashing days, like '87 and '88 the Wings made it to the conference finals and both times lost to the eventual Cup champion Edmonton Oilers.

I would agree with all that, and say that good or bad, it's because it's not a really a priority to Holland. Since he's been GM the Wings have lost a lot of those players, and they haven't been replaced in any way. They've been replaced with good players in most cases, but given up size and toughness. All those guys from the 90s cup wins weren't just lucky breaks. The Wings sought them out. It is a long term philosophy and process, especially under the cap. And is not one Holland seems particularly interested in.

Agreed. People were screaming at him during the Rangers game (out of force of habit, I guess). But I thought he looked pretty solid. Kept it simple. blocked shots. Killed penalties. The only thing I wanted to see more, which is a constant, is using his size to be more physical.

I think he got traded before the Cup in 97. My main point is that Holland is attributing this to the Scotty era. Yes Scotty liked to roll four lines, but he had a very different lineup then that was a mix of skill and toughness. This current philosophy is all Holland, not Scotty.

And Grimson? I'm definitely not saying that Kocur = Downey. Joey was a much better fighter, and a better hockey player. But not by a whole lot. He was on the team first and foremost for his fists and his hitting.

For Holland to say this "power play is our enforcer" started with Bowman isn't entirely accurate. The lineup Jimmy Devellano had built is hardly like the one the Wings have now. He did exactly what Holland referred to, sought out and developed those players who could fight, but could also play hockey. Think of the '97 lineup. Shanny (he was still a power forward then), McCarty, Konstantinov, Lapointe, Fetisov, Maltby (was nasty and would hit then), Aaron Ward. All those guys would hit, could play, and/or fight when necessary. Big physical players. It also ignores that Scotty "I like to roll 4 lines" Bowman had Kocur and Grimson in his lineup for several years. Joey would play about 30-50 games a season, and it wasn't for his goal scoring.