haroldsnepsts

This is what your argument has come to? That if we want more now it's up to us to go scout it? Last season when we wanted secondary scoring, should I have been out looking for a winger?? Should I be looking for a franchise goaltender right now? wtf are you talking about?

Exactly. And unfortunately the one point I do agree with NNick on is that even with an offseason to get in shape, Mac probably won't be anywhere near the player he was. So if it's just him doing the heavy lifting in enforcing, then we've lost a fair amount. This is where the argument gets weak for me. I've never seen Kopecky or Helm throw a hit or get in a fight that approaches anything that Drake or Downey could do. I'd be fine with us going with a combo of mac and downey, then picking someone up at the deadline. Again, it's not that I don't think Kenny won't do it, I just don't get how many people here think it's unimportant when to me this past season proved exactly how important it is.

I've said nothing even approaching that. But people seem to think that those players also had no factor in the Wings playing tougher this past season. that the Wings just magically started playing tougher and figured out how to win. It's about talent, chemistry and role players. I saw what I wanted to see? If that's true then the Wings would've beaten Anaheim and gone on to win the Cup. All I can do is comment on what I witnessed. By the end of the series the Wings were getting pushed off the puck and weren't going to the high traffic areas as much as they were earlier. I've never said anything to the effect that the Wings aren't contenders. That they can't win. I'm merely stating that part of the reason they were the team they were last year was because of the roles that Drake, Downey and Mac played. And right now we don't have any of that headed into next season. Can they win without them? Probably. But I like their chances a lot better if they have some of that element on the team, like they did last season.

that's because when they tried to play us that same way this past season, the Wings had the toughness to respond. I don't understand how people can talk about the Wings stepping up their toughness this past season and not see Drake, Downey and to a lesser extent Mac as a significant part of that. Without those guys out there, and the addition of Stuart, it doesn't happen. they didn't just magically get tougher. you don't remember Williams getting his head taken off? or Lebda? or any of the other cheapshots and physical play that went unanswered those two seasons? I guess you really don't watch the games. The funny thing is it was Drake who put the hit on Lebda. I guess Kenny liked what he saw. Furthermore, people act as if the only reason the Wings lost to Anaheim was a couple fluke injuries. I watched that series. By the end they were getting pushed to the perimeter. The Ducks ground them down. And it's also no coincidence that the Wings were amazingly healthy this postseason, as they didn't have to play San Jose or Anaheim.

well yeah, of course. I don't have a problem with the Lions being #4. They've been a non-factor for so long, I can't imagine why anyone outside of Detroit would care about them. Meanwhile the Wings, Pistons, and even Tigers have all had recent success.

To further beat this more than dead horse: I guess the part that baffles me and in part is why this conversation has gone on so long (at least my part in it), is that when we talk about the Wings not needing enforcers or guys who can fight in their lineup, we're not talking about a hypothetical situation. We already know what that looks like. That WAS this team in 06 and 07. (Bootland and Norton do not count). And I remember time and time again guys getting run at. Cheapshotted. The Wings getting knocked around. Certain teams more than others, but that was an effective strategy for teams against the Wings. Hit the wings hard enough, and they will wither. And people here were generally up in arms about it. That's what this team looks like without a couple guys who are respectable fighters. Part of the overall team toughness being increased this past season is not just because of how guys like Drake and Downey themselves played, but also how they affected the play of their teammates. You skate a little bigger when you've got those guys in your lineup watching your back.

Mainly because I don't think the question is relevant. You're making it an either or issue with Hossa, and it's not. And I agree about Chelios. As for Mac, I don't hold out high hopes either. I doubt he'll ever be the Mac of old, but hopefully he'll be better than he was in the playoffs, where he looked very slow and kep taking bad penalties.

Agreed. Drake didn't have a great season. But I've not seen Kopecky or Helm throw any hit even approaching some of the ones Drake is capable of. I hadn't heard that about Mac. That's good news. Honestly if it's going to be one guy I'd rather go with McCarty and hope that he can get back in shape and closer to form from his previous years with the Wings. If he can get that together, he has much more to offer than Downey, even though Downey's the better fighter.

We're a more talented team for sure. But again, you're linking two events that have nothing really to do with each other. And not to drag this further off topic, I don't get why so many people have such a problem with a guy like Downey or Mac who would take up a roster spot and play limited minutes, but most seem to welcome back Chelios with open arms to do the same thing. Sure Chelios was a better hockey player, but he's clearly on the decline and we have a backlog of kids who could take his spot. Particularly when you consider how rock solid our top four is.

But it's not really. I like those guys, but Helm doesn't bring what those guys do. He's not big and as far as I know, doesn't fight. Kopecky is bigger, but really doesn't bring those qualities either. Neither one are particularly devastating hitters, though Kopecky has the potential if he can bulk up. And I can't imagine either one of those guys squaring up with Parros or Fedoruk. Or even Mayers or Ott, who are some of the guys on Downey and Drake's fight card this past season.

Who has said that??? We're clearly a better team with Hossa. But it isn't an either or situation. It's not like Hossa is taking Drake's spot in the lineup. There's going to be a lot of juggling going on. And we do need someone to help take the physical role Drake, Downey, and Mac played last year. Whether it's those guys or someone else, I don't really care.

I can agree with that in terms of actually fighting over a clean hit. But a lot of Kronwall's hits are less than squeaky clean. And honestly many of the great players were known for not taking kindly to hits, even clean ones. Messier was legendary for it. And I don't know how many times over the years I'd watched Yzerman slash a guy after a clean hit.

I seriously wonder sometimes if you actually watch hockey games or just read about it and check stats. It's ingrained in the sport that if you throw a questionable, sometimes even clean, devastating hit, you may have to answer for it. This isn't me wanting enforcers. This about acknowledging what actually goes on in NHL games and has virtually since it's inception. It's a physical game. Guys get hit. They're not gonna like it. Whether it's an elbow was up, or they thought it was from behind, or it was clean and they're just pissed. If you can't throw a hit without being prepared to answer for it, the you shouldn't be playing hockey, because it is a big boy game.

I guess it comes down to that I really don't want to watch a Wings team where someone like Kronwall throws devastating and sometimes questionable hits, then have our players avoid confrontation from those hits. Live by the sword, by the sword. If they're gonna play physical, they have to be prepared for those times it come to blows. If I wanted to watch players turtle I'd be an Avs fan.

Because they managed to find guys who could fight AND play the game, which is obviously the best case scenario. That's not the case with the current roster. I'd love to have a team full of guys like the '97 versions of Lapointe, McCarty, Shanahan, Ward. The Wings had size, toughness, and could drop the gloves. But those guys are all gone (Mac is not the same guy as in '97). So I think a guy like Downey in a limited role is necessary. And in spite of those guys in the roster Bowman added Kocur to the lineup in 97. He wasn't a proponent of gooning it up, but I wouldn't call that exactly marginalizing enforcers.

The Wings had 21 fights during this past regular season. By far the most since the lockout. In 2007 they had 10 (and 4 of those were from Norton, who rarely won a fight). 2006 they had 6. Fights during the playoff are rare because the stakes are so high. But that doesn't mean they're not important in getting to the postseason and getting there healthy.

well obviously when we're talking about Downey, we're not talking about big goals. I was speaking in the general sense of things that fire up the team. As I've said, I just think Holland needs to have the same level of that kind of toughness that he did last season. We've already lost Drake, so there goes a good chunk of it. And I think having guys like Drake and Downey in the lineup allow the team to play overall more physical, because they have a teammate that's got their back and more importantly, can go with the other teams heavyweights when things get chippy. Honestly as I've gotten older, fights in hockey games are a lot less exciting to me. But I still think it's a necessary ingredient to having a successful hockey team in the NHL.

I know what you're getting at, but honestly a big goal, huge check, or sometimes a key fight can do way more to fire up the team through the course of a game than even the best coach can do.

Nice try, but that's not even close to what's happening. They're not avoiding throwing him under the bus. One of the Wings top players specifically named Downey as a reason they won. Are you really that far in denial you think that specifically attributing a win to him is the same as "not throwing him under the bus?" Z could've made any generic comment about Downey. From the same article: "Let's face it: The one thing you know he's going to do is take care of everybody in this room," forward Kris Draper said. "That's something we haven't had in a few years." I guess Draper means spiritually? There was good quote from Lidstrom a while back, but I can't find the link now. As for Probert, you're right. He was the most feared fighter in the league. So following that logic I guess the Wings should actually get a better enforcer than Downey. The problem is not his role, but that he's not good enough at it. You're just plain wrong about this one. Yes the fans love it. But so do the guys on the team, and that does win games. Z regarding Downey fighting McLaren after he ran Drake: Babcock on Downey (emphasis mine): I guess they're just not throwing him under the bus? The ideal would absolutely be a guy who can play the game and fight like Probert in his prime. But they're very hard to come by. Short of that, I'll take someone like Downey. Without anyone filling that role, look forward to a season of the Wings getting run at and pushed around with no one to answer for it. When you've got someone on your team who can go with the heavyweights, it's easier to throw the body yourself and muck it up.

Wrong. I would bet my paycheck that nearly every player on the Red Wings disagrees with that statement. Here's one (which I think I quoted earlier in this thread): http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/01/do...g_to_thank.html Like it or not, having a guy like Downey in the lineup changes how the team plays, which also wins them games. I wonder how Steve Yzerman felt about having Probert on his wing. Just a cheerleader I suppose.

This we can agree on. Feds is in the HOF for sure. I'd be amazed if it wasn't on the first ballot.

No, but I think people often argue that because it doesn't prevent the cheapshots, it does no good. I just realized this was originally a thread about Hudler. I think I've said my peace and dragged this far enough off topic.

It wasn't. I've just read several people talking about how the Downey's (or some other enforcers) spot in the lineup could be used with some player that has more skill. I'm repeating myself here, but basically I just want the Wings to maintain the level they had from last year with Downey and Drake, and later Mac.

It doesn't. But take a look at the Red Wings bench. You don't think that Downey sticking up for the captain meant anything to the team?

Exactly. I don't think they need more fighting. They just need that little bit that Downey, Mac, and Drake brought. Whether it's from those two guys or someone else doesn't matter a whole lot to me.