haroldsnepsts

Honestly I think what Walker did is fine. Franzen nailed one of their big players on a borderline hit from behind, so Walker went after him. When they're over by the net, it looks like he squared up. He didn't jump him from behind or anything. Franzen had plenty of time to stick up for himself. He's just not really a fighter. Lidstrom I'm not worried about because you're right, the guy's nearly impossible to hit. I don't understand quite how, but he never gets hit. But the past few seasons there were many instances of guys getting run. Lebda, Wililams, I can't even remember all the guys who were on the receiving end of headshots, or hits from behind, or questionable hits in general. I disagree that the vast majority of the time it's the Wings doling out the punishment. I think last season was the exception, partly because of guys like Drake and Downey, and that the rest of the team stepped up their physical play as well. Like I said, I'm not specifically attached to McCarty or Downey, but I do think we need someone in that capacity, especially now that Drake is gone. I just disagree with the idea the Wings no longer need anyone in that role when they could have a skill player in the spot (that's not directed at you, but is a growing opinion around here). As Bluemonk has pointed out, it's about balance. Having the lineup chock full of skill players does not necessarily mean the Wings have the best chance at winning.

Lilja yes, sometimes. Franzen, not so much. If the Wings are relying on Mule to protect them, they're in for a long season. And there's a huge difference between being scrappy and going toe to toe with someone.

Kopecky is head and shoulders above Downey in terms of playing ability. The thing is that we have a lot of guys in the lineup with the qualities you mentioned, and none that really bring what Downey does, especially with Drake gone. I'm not attached to Downey specifically, but the Wings do need a player like him out there.

It is surprising to me that even after last season, people don't see the value in having guys like Downey and Drake on the team. To me it is like night and day watching how last year's team played versus the previous couple seasons where the power play was the enforcer. Meaning a Wings player would get cheapshotted and everyone would stand around. And before anyone says it, no it's not necessarily a deterrent to cheapshots. But it's fairly obvious it has an impact on team chemistry, how physical the Wings play, and how opponents play against them. I'd love to have a guy who can make valuable contribution AND drop the gloves and win some fights. But short of that, I'll take Downey in his extremely limited but effective role.

You keep acting as if there should be equity and fairness over the decades as to who gets their numbers retired or not. I'm merely stating I don't think it will happen and why. I'm not arguing whether his holding out was justified or not, just that it's an issue. It's the opinion of Ilitch and co. that matters relative to his jersey being retired and I bet they have a different view of the situation than you do. Lindsay didn't have his number retired by the same owner and management that he had trouble with. For Fedorov, that would have to be the case, at least in the foreseeable future.

Honestly on paper he's got it, but I think it's some of the character things he did as a Wing (off the ice) that may keep his jersey from hanging from the rafters. With the exception of Sawchuk, all the other players were Wings captains. Same goes for when Lids' number is up there. I just think the criteria includes an element of being a Red Wing through and through, and like it or not some of the things Sergei did during his career tarnish that. Missing most of the '98 season due to his contract holdout is probably the biggest one. The offer sheet with Carolina. The difficult contract negotiations in 03 and his going to Anaheim of all places after losing to them in the first round. It all points to a generally acrimonious relationship he often had with management.

The players themselves say they like having a guy like Downey who has their back out there. The Downey love got ridiculous here, but he knows his role and is effective at it, and it is valuable to the team. Having him and Drake out there made a difference. http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008/01/do...g_to_thank.html

I don't think that's necessarily true. We're talking about different players from very different eras, playing in essentially different leagues. By the standard that seems to be used these days for players of the modern era, I don't think Fedorov makes the cut. And even if they weren't worthy, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right. It's not totally out of the question his number would get retired. Fedorov was a great player and a valuable part of the Wings for many years, but I just don't see it happening.

where exactly did I say he should unretire those jerseys? Not including Fedorov isn't equivalent with taking down the ones that are up there.

Honestly I'm a Fedorov fan and have not bitterness about how or why he left. He was one of my favorite Wings. I just don't think he quite makes the cut to have his jersey hung from the rafters.

I think he does as well. The biggest deficit being he missed the Cup years. But otherwise I think he's right there with those guys in terms of importance and ability. And in terms of playing style, I think he actually is a relevant comparison to Fedorov, only from a much earlier era. A great stick handler and two-way player, big in the playoffs.

Yes, his number shouldn't be retired just because he left and we're still whining about it. The Wings can hang his jersey from the rafters right there next to Norm Ullman's.

Do the Wings have some amazing new prospect who wears that number??

As has been mentioned, Fedorov didn't jump ship for more money. But I agree that they aren't the same situations because Fedorov was not a playoff rental, he was a key Red Wings player for years.

I'm pretty certain he was being sarcastic.

First off, Emery did not play the race card. A journalist wrote an article implying Emery's race was a factor. Emery himself has said nothing of the sort that I've ever seen or heard. Second, do you not see how the statement I bolded is a broad generalization about minorities, a.k.a. a racist statement?

Exactly. I think Phaneuf is a good D-man, and can be great. But I think some people get ahead of themselves when rating his abilities because of his hitting and his youth. In spite of the Norris voting this past year, I wouldn't call him 2nd best in the league right now.

I get what you're saying, but he's signed thru 2010 for a good price and is a 40 to 50 point player. He's gonna be in the lineup.

Where's Holmstrom?

Are you really rating Phaneuf that close to Lidstrom, and over the likes of Pronger?

No, I wasn't referring to Toth actually. But I've seen the phrase used here and other places regarding Emery. How all his problems are "typical hip hop."

If the ZDH line were kept intact, probably Franzen. He's not tremendous at distributing the puck, but I think brings more offense overall than Flip, and is responsible defensively. Honestly though with Hossa here it probably makes more sense to let Z and Datsyuk center their own lines. There's enough offensive talent now to split them up.

I think the only aspect of this that involves racism is when people allude to his "typical hip hop" attitude. Because the implication is "typical n*gger." There's been plenty of white players with horrible problems and poor work ethic. Did they have a hip hop attitude? As for the article and Emery playing in Russia, I think it has more to do with his position than his race. You can get away with taking a gamble on a forward who brained some guy on the ice, but it's something else to risk committing to a goaltender who may have problems on and off the ice.

I guess the bottom line for me in any line combinations is I'm not quite convinced that Flip warrants being 2nd line center.

I think the big question mark is Franzen honestly. Will we see the Franzen of the first half of the season? or the second half? Whether the end of last year was somewhat of an anomaly, or if he finally figured out how good he is. And over half his goals came on the power play, whereas only 5 of Cleary's 20 goals did. When you look at the whole season (at least the portion Cleary was in the lineup) I honestly think he had a better year than Franzen. Franzen just played out of his mind at the end. With 20 goals, 42 points and +21 in 63 games, you could make a case for him on the 2nd line in place of Mule, depending on which Mule shows up. And though it would likely won't happen because it's probably not the best use of the roster, there's some appeal in seeing a big line line out there like Cleary, Franzen and Hossa. The smallest guy being Cleary at 6'0" and 210 lbs.