haroldsnepsts

For what it's worth, Datsyuk was tied with Lidstrom for the most giveaways in the playoffs with 25. Lilja was next with 23, then Lang with 21. Regular season, Lang was by far the leader. Though it's a mostly unreliable stat anyway. There's no clear standard for determining what constitutes a giveaway, or a takeaway for that matter. The number seems to be determined more by what building you play in than what happens on the ice. So when bashing Lang, I think it's better to stick with him being lazy and sucking. All that being said, I still can't believe the Hawks gave him a 2 year deal at $4 mill. They give Millen a run for his money in totally mismanaging a team.

Link? I'd be curious to see how it breaks down for the various franchises.

The Cup in 97 for sure. For so long I thought they'd never win one. That I'd never get to see Stevie holding it over his head as he skated around the ice. Amazing. Second to that is from when I was probably at my most obsessed as a Wings fan, when they were just turning it around from being the Dead Wings. In 1987 they were losing to Toronto 3 games to 1. Everyone was happy the Wing didn't suck anymore, but was also sad their playoff run was about to be over. They managed to come back and win three straight games to make it to the Conference finals against Edmonton. Back then it was like winning the Cup for me. They were subsequently crushed by the Cup winning Edmonton Oilers, but it was still a great run and great comeback against their arch rival Toronto.

I mostly agree Lou, but too many of Avery's penalty minutes were of the extremely stupid variety. That's different than getting them from dropping the gloves and the occasional 10 minute misconduct. Avery does seem to have gotten his act together a bit. I'd still be nervous about having him on the Wings, but he's always had a lot of great qualities as a player. Unfortunately they just came along with all his other crap.

For that to happen, ESPN would have to acknowledge that hockey is a sport.

Expansion accomplished! I also think there's an element of people rallying for the cause to keep the team, which probably won't translate to staying as fans. People getting up in arms about the cause. "Hey we deserve a team!" and rallying for support. But once that's passed, not really keeping that same level of support. Edit: I didn't articulate that very well, but you know what I mean?

Tough guys ≠slow guys PIMS ≠losing old clutch n grab hockey ≠team toughness one tiny example. Anaheim Ducks led the league in PIMs (both regular season and playoffs) and won the Stanley Cup. So your statement about PIMs = losing has been disproven as solidly as it possibly could be. I don't like the old clutch and grab game, but that's not the same as wanting team toughness. wow, bragging about some 70" plasma t.v. Talk about overcompensating...

I wouldn't say he beat the ever living crap out of Krownall. That was one sloppy fight. Did anyone even connect with a punch? Either way, I'm glad we've got Rafalski. I'd much rather have him than Souray.

I saw this link over at hfboards. I'd never seen this shootout goal before, but it's seriously better than Datsyuk's dekes. I can't stop watching it.

Wow. Nice fight by Kopecky. He was throwing some haymakers.

I voted. But you're right. sid doesn't have a chance against Jeeter.

I seriously can't stop laughing everytime I watch it. He juked himself out of his own jockstrap and nearly knocked himself unconscious. Awesome. It's almost enough to make me love shootouts. almost.

I had to throw in a darkhorse there. The lower tier D-men are always candidates for bashing. People hang on to a few mistakes they see and never get over it. I almost put Kronwall. If he doesn't play great every game, people start saying he's overrated because he was supposed to be the second coming of Lidstrom. Which no one ever claimed. "Nick Jr." has more to do with his name than his play, especially since he and Lids play a pretty different style. Huds is another good candidate. There's a pretty big pro-Hudler camp here, but that may only accentuate the bashing. As long as he's in Babcock's doghouse though and getting limited minutes, I don't see him having a chance to really become the new whipping boy.

I've always liked Jimmy D.

You're wrong. If you could read, you would see that I have been saying that Lang was better last year and that Flip has a lot of potential ALL ALONG. I think I've mentioned it about 15 times now, but here's the original post: (I highlighted the most relevant portion since I know you're incapable of reading and comprehending the entire contents of a post). See how all this unpleasantness could've been avoided if you'd take the time to actually read before jumping at the chance to show us all just how smart you are? so you're speaking for everyone in this thread now? Was there a vote for thread captain and I missed it? Who got the 'A'? "Logical fallacy." oooo, I used to love that band in college. Enjoy your intellectual masturbation. I'm done arguing with you.

The stupidest part is that this is about the worst tactic his agent could've used. He only confirmed what a lot of people already thought about Yashin.

Here we go again. You putting words in my mouth, telling me that I only considered last seasons point totals when responding. Um, did you read the part where I said more than stats, I based it on watching the games? Of course not, because you disregard anything I say that doesn't give you a reason to continue this inane debate. pot kettle black. I'm arguing because I never said Flip wasn't the better player for the Wings now, dumbass! It's not like you've bested me in some battle of wits. You're arguing a point I never disagreed with. Scroll back through the thread sparky. You're the one who chimed in and started this debate with your statistical analysis. All I said was that Lang was better last season. how can you take such a relatively simple statement and turn it into such a clusterf*ck of an argument? Seriously. Run along. You either have the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader, or you just love to argue. EDITED for grammar.

You're mistaken. That was game one and both goals were fluky ones off Beachemin. Basically Detroit won because they hung on to the two own-goal lead provided by the Ducks. http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=270511005 Yup. And the Ducks were able to score that last second goal because of the penalty Datsyuk took, creating a 6 on 4. Bu that was all the refs fault, right? Dats stopped skating and interfered. But I'm not pinning the series loss on Dats, just like Lilja's bad play didn't cost us the series. The Wings failed to convert on multiple power play chances throughout the series. Against a team like Anaheim, if you don't seize those opportunities, you're not going to win.

Lebda. Mainly because Quincey's only played a handful of games in the NHL. That's not to see he won't surpass Lebda. He just needs to develop. I think Quincey will get his shot.

oh my god. Do you like arguing purely for arguing's sake? And I'm already in one cluster f*ck of a confusing argument. I never asserted that performance last season was the be all end all of who's better for f*ck's sake! For the last time, I specified in my original post that if we're talking about last season, Lang was the better player. Not based on any extrapolation or in depth statistical analysis, not based on who I would take if I were GM, not based on who has the most potential, but based on watching the games and on what I know about hockey. He centered the second line and while not having a good year, over the course of the season the Wings had a better chance of winning the game with Lang on the ice than they did with Filppula. That's not a knock on Flip. All that being said if I had to pick between Flip and Lang, especially at their current salaries, I'd absolutely take Filppula.

Well this should do wonders for his image. His agent is a moron if he thought making these statements would somehow help. Gee, what else could it be besides the buyout that's factoring into the "low" offers for Yashin?

That was a solid clean hit on Aubin. Man it'd be nice if the Wings would drop the gloves and stick up for their teammate after a hit like that, clean or not. Lebda gets crushed and what does Drake get? a little shove.

Dats stopped skating and interfered with the guy. I don't really like the call, but it was pretty consistent with how they'd been calling them that game. they just didn't swallow the whistle in the final minutes like they used to. If anything I think the opposite is now true. Refs seem to get some sort of bonus points for calling a penalty at crucial moments when they used to let the players decide the game. It was a bad play, but didn't cost the Wings the series. If anything did, it was their failure to capitalize on the countless power play chances anaheim gave them, not one bonehead play by Lilypads.

I think it's not useful in specifically that situation - comparing players with vastly different TOI, because it calls for some form of extrapolation that's not sound. The underlying assumption is that if you put them both out on the ice for the same number of minutes, then the guy with the higher points per minute is going to perform better. It ignores too many other variables. again, and I don't know how I can make this any clearer. I wasn't talking about salaries, or drafting, or signing free agents. I was responding to a question someone raised as to who was better last year. Flip or Lang. Potential is useful in a player overall and their career, but it doesn't win you games. Lang was better. Players with more limited ice time benefit from the backup goalie effect. If they do something halfway decent during they're limited shifts, it looks amazing and people assume that given much more ice time, things will only get better. That's not necessarily so (which gets back to why I dont find the points per time on ice comparisons particularly useful). A lot of times guys are more productive in limited roles because they can go like hell for those 10 minutes a game. Or they're just not developed enough as players to handle manning a 1st or 2nd line. But with Lang out on the ice 16 minutes a game, you see it all. The good and the bad. Like with the starting goaltender who plays 60 times a year. the fans no what they'r getting, whereas when the backup plays he has lower expectations. He comes in and plays a few great games and people start thinking, why don't we dump the starter and give this guy the job? I'm not saying flip and Hudler will never get there. But they weren't getting the ice time because Babcock didn't think they deserved it yet. I'm not worried about the division. I'm thinking playoffs. I wasn't saying I wanted Holland to make a move now, but hopefully by the trade deadline.

yup. And more importantly, so did Babcock. because the sluggish skating, giveaways, wiffed shots and lack of defense has all been exaggerated to a ridiculous degree here. Do you seriously think if he were the massive liability that most people here make him out to be, that Babcock would've had him on the ice at all, let alone 15+ minutes a game? especially in the playoffs?! EDIT: for being so horrible defensively and all his giveaways, Lang was+12 during the regular season, and third overall in the postseason with a +5. (datsyuk was a +2 and Zetterberg +1)