haroldsnepsts

If it meant ditching Kindl, I'd be interested. Obviously he costs more but could be a great RH shot on the PP, he's a good puck mover, and likely wouldn't be any worse than Kindl defensively. Like I said though, with the money they're speculating he'll get ($5 mill) I don't see Holland pulling the trigger.

At 37, Boyle is certainly old, but he's still a very good skater and has always played bigger than he is. He's also the RH shot the Wings desperately need. I didn't see him a ton this past season but it seems like his play has fallen off. For me the big question is if that's partly due to lingering effects from the Lapierre hit, or if at 37 his level of play is about to go off the cliff. Honestly I don't know how to feel about it. I wouldn't be upset if the Wings brought him in, but I'm guessing at the price he'll require it likely won't happen anyway.

Think back to the ones with the lame staged fights.

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 3m For the record, the Islanders did offer Boyle a 2 yr deal. Not sure on the $, but he's likely to make upwards of $5 mil per as a ufa.

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun 42m Isles GM Garth Snow says he's now shopping Dan Boyle's rights, having been unable to sign the pending UFA defenseman... Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 2m @Real_ESPNLeBrun. Told Boyle is intrigued by Isles offer and interest, but remains undecided. Still firm on a 2 year deal.

As someone pointed out, this is basically the same deal the Wings made with Maltby. Holland gave Maltby a two-way contract and he went to camp, but even then it was clear with all the forwards they had that Maltby had little chance of making the Wings roster. He apparently had a good camp, but still not good enough to take someone else's job. Rather than head to the AHL, he retired. It's a little nerve racking because of Holland signing him last season, but I really do think this is Holland just keeping his word to a heart and soul Red Wings player.

Source: Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie 38m DET puts Jordin Tootoo on buyout waivers. Tootoo seems like a good guy but I never understood this signing. Overpayment (especially given the term) for his type of player, and he never got utilized anyway. It's like Babcock and Holland never had a conversation about Tootoo or something. Because his playing style didn't change from the Predators to Detroit. They knew what they were getting and Babcock didn't want it.

I started to type that people shouldn't freak out because there's no way Cleary is going to be a Red Wings, then I realized I typed basically the exact same thing before Holland signed him last summer. Still, I really don't think it'll happen this time. I'm a big Cleary fan, but enough's enough.

What? Wait! I'm not done arguing with you! All in all I've been a fan of Cleary over the years but it's obvious he's not the player he once was. The heart is willing but the body isn't able. Hopefully all parties involve find a graceful exit for his time here on the Wings roster. EDIT: And I didn't make it that clear in my last post, but over the last year people have made many statements of Babcock's role as if they were fact. And the size of that role has been increasing with each mention. So my (over)reaction to your post was about more than just your few statements. I guess I get my knickers in a twist when keep repeating things enough here that they're taken as fact.

I honestly don't know. It could be because Holland had already offered Cleary a multi year deal earlier and then offered a lot less money when Cleary asked to meet with him and Babs. It could be that Holmgrem floated some numbers to Cleary and Dan is trying to keep him from getting in trouble with the NHL. The point is, we don't know. It's all conjecture. There's no solid evidence. And there's absolutely nothing that shows that Babcock was the reason for the multi year commitment, which is what you stated as fact. It was done at the 11th hour because Cleary had a change of heart. He's the one who requested the meeting. You keep ignoring that Holland offered Cleary a multi year deal earlier in the summer. Your statements about Babcock's role are still baseless and aren't founded on logic. They're inferences you've drawn from reporters using words like "urged" and "pushed." That's a huge difference between logic drawn from facts. Why would I need proof that the person who's job it is to sign players to contracts had a significant role in signing a player to a contract? I've already repeated your claims multiple times. You didn't just state that Babcock had a role in signing Cleary. You made very specific statements about Babcock being the reason for a multi year promise from the Wings and from Cleary leaving millions in Philly. You refuted someone's statements about Holland by assigning sole responsibility to Babcock. It's been repeated multiple times in this forum over the last year that it was because of Babcock, and over time people keep increasing the scope and depth of his responsibility, yet no one has provided any evidence other than Babcock lobbied for Cleary. Which he does all the time for players. And we know he has a man crush on Cleary, but Babcock and Holland disagree about roster decisions all the time. Part of that disagreement is Babcock arguing his position. It's a normal part of their working relationship. It's not like this is the one time Babcock argued with Holland and so Holland went out and did what Babs wanted.

At least the team will finally be rid of the bad signings from a couple summers ago. Assuming Weiss is healthy and productive, Kindl's is really the only contract that isn't great. (And Mule's but that's been beat to death and he's at least productive).

You didn't say that you thought Babcock was the primary motivator in bringing back Cleary. You stated that "Babs was the reason he left money on the table in Philly." Nevermind that it ignores Cleary's role in the whole thing, there's nothing in your sources to support that statement. Furthermore, from one of your own links (emphasis mine): You stated that "Babs was the reason he got a commitment beyond last year from the Wings." There's nothing in your links to support that statement. The only thing you established, which was included in my links as well (I think we actually linked to a couple of the same articles) was that Babcock was pushing for Cleary. Everyone knew that. His man love for Cleary has been beat to death here. I also linked to articles stating Holland wanted Cleary back. But you went beyond saying he pushed for Cleary. You singled out Babcock as the reason why Cleary walked away from millions in Philly. Millions it turns out, that may not have even been there. Then you flatly stated that Babcock is the reason the Wings made a multi-year promise to Cleary. I haven't seen any evidence that in any way supports that claim. There's a massive gap between a coach saying he wants a player on a team and claiming the coach is the sole reason the Wings made a handshake deal to sign a player after this one year contract. So if you didn't like my word choice of "elaborate," how about "baseless."

Yeah, I'm not going to sift through those links and try to divine which portion you think proves that "Babs was the reason he left money on the table in Philly" that "Babs was the reason he got a commitment beyond last year from the Wings" or "Without the coach's intervention, Cleary is a Flyer right now." If you want to post the relevant excerpts, go for it. I'm in no way trying to absolve Babcock of any responsibility. Even in links I posted, it's clear that Babcock wanted him here. As did the players. But between the players, coach, and GM, whose job is it to make the final decision on contracts? Holland's job is to make personnel decisions. Especially ones where players and even a coach may have an attachment to a player that isn't in line with his market value or the longer term goals of the team. That's a HUGE part of Holland's job, so it's not unreasonable to put a big helping of the blame for Cleary on him. It's well established he and Babcock don't see eye to eye on a lot of personnel decisions. If Babcock could convince Holland to sign anyone he wanted, I'm guessing the team would look significantly different. Maybe not better, but different for sure.

I'm guessing Cleary's end of the deal was signing for less money than Holland offered him earlier, so he did hold up his end of the deal. Like I said, I don't want Cleary back on the Wings. The guy is all heart but it would take a miraculous recovery for him to hold a spot on the team.

Do you have any source to back up any of these elaborate claims? Do you really think Babcock could make Holland do something he absolutely didn't want to do, especially when it involves putting his team against the roster and cap limit? I know you don't like Babcock and are eager to blame him for anything possible, but my memory from that time and the multiple sources I've found state that Babcock, the players, and yes Holland all wanted Cleary back. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/wings/2013/09/12/daniel-cleary-detroit-red-wings-return/2804183/ All parties being Holland, Cleary and Babcock. http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2013/9/12/4722900/daniel-cleary-detroit-red-wings-philadelphia-flyers You can pretend this is all Babcock's fault but it ignores the fact that Holland offered Cleary a contract before he ever talked to Philly. Not to mention there was a lot of speculation the Philly deal fell through due to the handshake deal Philly made because they didn't have cap room at the time, not because that dastardly Babcock convinced Cleary to walk away from millions of dollars and Holland to go against his own wishes and sign Cleary. As for this latest news, I don't want Cleary back on the team, but it's stated pretty clearly why the Red Wings are doing this. They're keeping their word.

Lundqvist is basically the reason the Rangers made it to the Cup, so I'm not sure what your point is. The nickname King has nothing to do with him winning anything.

If you're not interested in the thread, simply don't post in it.

It's surprising how young some of that roster is based on how they play. Pearson is 21, Toffoli is 22. Those two combined for 26 points in the playoffs and were great with Carter on "That 70s Line." Pearson now has played as many postseason NHL games as he has regular season (25). And this was Toffoli's first full season. On the blueline Muzzin is 25, Voynov 23, and it's hard to believe it with all the hockey he's played but Doughty is only 24.

I guess it speaks to how well the team was playing when you could really make a strong case for 4 players to win the Conn Smythe.

Martinez is a kid from Rochester Hills drafted in the 4th round by LA, by the way.

If they weren't playing the Kings I definitely would've been pulling for Lundqvist to win it.

Link? Because the sources I found name the last few years as the best ratings since 1975. I don't understand why people rush to defend Bettman by pointing out how much money he's made owners. Who cares?? I don't own a franchise. I'm a fan of the game. Bettman succeeds because he knows us die hard hockey fans will keep coming back no matter how many reasons he gives us not to. People seem to have a misconception that the Commissioner's only job is just to make a crapload of money for ownership. It's not. It's also to protect the integrity of the game and uphold public confidence in the league. By that measure Bettman has done a terrible job.

Wooohoooo!!! If the Wings don't win it, then I'm glad it's going to the Kings. What crazy playoff runs they've had in their two Cup wins. Steamrolling everyone two years ago, then doing it the hard way this year. Williams is a great story with his clutch play, but I think the Conn Smythe should've gone to Doughty. The guy was a beast this playoffs.

They also wouldn't have made it this far without Quick stealing them some games. Shaky almost every game this postseason? How many games did you watch Quick play this postseason? Nevermind. Are views are so far apart on this there's really no point in us discussing it.

You're saying that after last night's game? Quick has played at an elite level multiple times this postseason.