haroldsnepsts

He hasn't even been re-signed and you're already upset it's gross overpayment? Until the dust settles, I don't know what to think of Holland's offseason. And Cleary is only a piece of it.

Cleary has consistently better production than both those guys and can play on the PP. If anything, signing both Eaves and Miller is a mistake because they're basically the same player.

half playoff series? Cleary was good all through this playoffs. Like I said, he was more of a factor with a separated shoulder then Flip and Mule. It certainly won't kill me if they don't re-sign him but he still has some value in a Holmstrom like role. Cleary is not afraid to go to any part of the ice and battle for the puck. It's often ugly but it's more effective than people give him credit for. He didn't simple stand around and have pucks hit him. He did the dirty work a lot of guys don't. The concern for me with Cleary is always his health. If he stays healthy he's probably good for 30ish points. If he ends up on the top lines again, that's more Holland's fault for not giving Babcock better players to work with, especially if he's stuck with an injured Bertuzzi and Samuelsson again. I guess I'm saying what happens with Cleary isn't going to be a large part of what I think of Holland's moves this offseason.

It all depends on the dollar amount. If he gets him signed at decent value, Cleary is a good utility player. I'd rather he buy out Sammy and find someone to fill his spot who is actually healthy and can be a part of the Wings future.

If Tootoo is worth $1.9, Cleary is worth 2.

Can you blame him? Cleary had a separated shoulder in the final game against Anaheim and all of the Chicago series, and was still more of a factor than Flip and Mule. I'm not saying re-signing him is a must for the Wings, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do and I understand why the coach loves him. Him getting so many top 6 and PP minutes only shows Detroit's need for a real scorer up front. If they remedy that, Cleary can move down and still be effective. And I said, if they do re-sign him hopefully it's for fairly short term because his body probably won't hold up that much longer.

Agreed. People seem to want the rookies to get more time and not "overripen" but then you also have to expect big mistakes. I think we've been spoiled watching Lidstrom for so long. But even the top D men sometimes make awful plays. Chara was mostly great in the playoffs but had a couple head scrathing defensive lapses. There's Boyle blowing past Suter on an end to end rush like he was Bobby Orr. If it happens to those guys, then the kids who haven't even had a full season in the NHL are going to get exposed as they adjust to playing at a new level.

I know I'll probably get flack for this but I'm okay with him re-signing Cleary if it's for a decent price. The guys a warrior and in spite of how people discount all his points, he was second only to Z in playoff scoring. It just needs to be at good value, short term, and he should play fewer minutes. re-signing Sammy on the other hand, I'm still ticked about. And now even if Holland wants to he may not be able to buy Sammy out because he's "injured." True. It would've been what, something like $23 million tied up through 2021 AND having to re-sign Datsyuk? It's a decent value for those guys now but the team loses so much flexibility for future moves.

Exactly. I know this is the overreaction thread, but as has been said before regarding Smith, he's played a whopping 48 regular season games in the NHL. With more experience he should improve. In spite of his inexperience, in the playoffs he was essentially tied with Quincey for third in TOI per game and was also on the PK. Part of the reason he looked so shaky was because he got thrown in the deep end.

That the money would've been better spent on Suter and Parise? Not really. It's been one lockout shortened season into their 13 year contracts. It's a little early to know how they'll affect the Wild. But for their $13 million last season they almost fell out of a playoff spot and won one postseason game. I didn't like a lot of Holland's signings (Sammy, Tootoo, to a lesser extent Q) but ultimately I think the Parise/Suter contracts would've handcuffed the team for too long.

LGW has never had a single opinion about anything. It's revisionist history for the purposes of you saying "I told you so."

In terms of a team signing him, I'd be a little wary that he can return to form as a 39 year-old who hasn't played since april of 2012. Also from a purely business standpoint as an owner or GM I'd be a little wary of signing him based on how he handled his contract situation with Boston, whatever the reason. An older but extremely talented goalie, questionable teammate, and an unknown as to if he'd play out a new contract. It's an interesting gamble but I'm sure some team will take it. The potential upside is too big not to.

Just a reminder to keep the discussion out of the political arena and about hockey.

I'm no Luongo fan but he's been extremely professional considering how Vancouver has jerked him around. It would be funny for the Nucks to sign Thomas though, just to continue bungling their goaltender situation.

I'm not sure why you're being so sarcastic and calling out LGW for something no one has really said. You yourself posted this scouting report on Mantha: No one is saying he's condemned to be like Franzen, playing hard only when he feels like it. If you draft a player, you'd naturally rather hear that the kid competes for every puck and is mature for his age. It's obviously not a deal breaker but just a component of his game that will hopefully greatly improve. Most of the people making the Franzen comparison, myself included, have said exactly what you just did. He's young and far from finished developing.

I actually gained some respect for Kane (it had nowhere to go but up). He's a d-bag off the ice, but wasn't most of the time on it. Lost a ton for Toews. It's a reflex for me to hate the Hawks, but it is good to see that the Wirtz family has turned that franchise around after Dollar Bill died.

He's young so there's plenty of time to change but some of the descriptions of him I've read sound a little Franzen-esque. Great hands, size, ability, questionable compete level. Hopefully the kid gets some fire in him.

I guess Holland didn't want the Wings to have the highest pick they've had since 2005? Actually I forgot Kindl was 19th so I think it would've been the highest pick they've had since they drafted Lapointe in 91? Or am I forgetting someone?

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 24s Wings have traded their first-round pick 18th to San Jose for the 20th pick. Waiting to see what else Wings got.

The draft and buyout thread is a good catch all, but this one was a shocker. I saw it but figured this was a big enough deal for it's own thread. So who's the backup in Vancouver now? Now the Canucks starting goaltender is one who's probably unhappy to be there and still has a history of meltdowns in key games.

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 14m Mike Smith deal: 6 years. 6 years, $5.6666 per. No-trade and no-move clause included.

You may disagree but mine actually is a reasonably sound argument. I've used statistics to support my case, but as I mentioned repeatedly, it also relies on watching the games. Sorry if it offends you because I said something mildly critical of one of your favorite players, but that doesn't make it baseless. A baseless argument would be this one. First, he wasn't playing big minutes. As has been covered, his average TOI per game was 18:33, which puts him at #6 on the depth chart when everyone is healthy. 2:36 of his minutes were on the PP, which means he only average 15:40 per game at Even Strength, and 15 seconds on the PK. That average ES TOI puts him 7th. 6th if you dont' want to count Cola. Kronwall by comparison was playing 18:01 ES minutes per game. And Ericsson was close behind with 17:55. Those are big minutes against top competition. In the playoffs the gap between the top pairing and other D men because even more pronounced. Second, +/- is in no way a great indicator of taking care of business in your own end. I've used this example before, but Lidstrom finished a -2 in 2011. Using your reasoning, Brian Rafalski was best on the team at "taking care of business in his own end" with a +11 while Lidstrom was apparently worst at it among the regular defensive corps. Watching the games tells us that's not actually the case. Rafalski was often a liability defensively with his small stature and ailing knee. There's also the small point of Lidstrom winning the Norris that year, but I guess that's not a stat really so it doesn't count. All of this makes it seem like I'm being harder on Kindl than I actually am. All I was saying is he needs to improve his consistency in his own zone and this contract will be worth it.

It's pretty hilarious that in one single post you can misrepresent my point to argue against it but then mostly sum it up correctly. You don't have any statistics to prove your opinion either. That's why they're opinions. It's also why watching the games is a great way to form an opinion of a player. After you've taken one relatively minor point I made regarding Kindl's contract and repeatedly misconstrued it, I think we've derailed the thread enough here.

As I've said, feel free to read back through my previous posts. His TOI is somewhat of an indication of where he stands in the lineup. But more importantly, I watch him play and base my opinion on that. Not everything can be boiled down to statistics. Your misusing the +/- stat does not somehow make your argument the right one. We're talking about hockey, not proving a theorem.

Yes, I did. But all you're responses act like I called him a #7 D-man overall. You can tell me whatever you want, it doesn't make it true. If you don't just quote part of my post out of context, you'll see I complimented a lot of his game. And he has absolutely made big strides this year. He was very poised in the offensive zone this season but Kindl doesn't play with the consistency of a #4 or better in his own end. Why knock any part of his game? For starters, it's a thread about Kindl's new contract on a hockey discussion forum, so all aspects of his game are relevant. This isn't a cheerleading thread.