Heaton

Jay-Bo to Toronto? That could make some folks happy, especially since Toronto won't have to give up much since they're trading with Florida.

Heh. I'll make this my last post on the subject seeing as it's a never ending cycle. Players who can play the game of hockey and stick up for their teammates are players that I covet. Brendan Shanahan is the epitome of that and these days guys like Jarome Iginla and Brendan Morrow have taken his role to a lesser state as the talent has gone up so the space for the Peter Worrell's are now almost extint. I loved what Downey did last year and I've never said otherwise. I advocated for Brad Norton when he got signed because the players gushed over him because of the aura that he brought and I was more than happy after he left because he ended up being horrible. Downey is the perfect fit for the team because he understood his role and never took stupid retaliation penalties because he realized it was detrimental to the team and added nothing to the lineup. Since it looks like Darren McCarty will be brought back I'm confident he'll be able to do the same job that Downey did as McCarty's skills are basically gone and he's reduced to a 4-6 minute a night guy who's job is to patrol and can take care of whatever. The way this team is built and especially this year, there just isn't any room for more than a select few non impact players. There's no reason to doubt what Ken Holland does this year because from the beginning of the lockout no one has managed their team better or made more right decisions than him. Downey or McCarty will get signed and I can see why you're getting antsy about it but there's no rush to get it done. No one is going to sign them, neither is going to the KHL or some other European league (unless they get some ridiculous offer) so don't fret. My stance has been consistent from the beginning and I'm sure harlodsnepts or Barnes52 (who posts on RWC) or BlueMonk or whatever can vouch for my consistency on the subject. But I'll break it down: Fighting? Like it, I love when vengeance is carried out like Downey on Lappy, I loved when Downey had enough of MacLaren and they went at it. I hate the WWE style fights, the Laraque fights, the generic Boogaard vs. Parros fights just to get their fight card up. I realize the majority of fight fans love it but I find it boring and useless. I'd rather have a player who could play and fight but I'm neither for nor against playing a guy like Downey half the games, I'm indifferent because I don't think the fights themselves are as important as the mental aspect that comes with it. I feel the Wings are one of the toughest teams in the league when it counts the most. No other team goes into more high traffic areas, no other team goes to the front the most, no other team has the mental toughness to get knocked down and get right back up. No other team is as intimidating as the Red Wings. I don't agree that moral victories are anywhere near as important as winning the acutal game and lastly the only thing that matters in the NHL is winning. Nothing else matters and it doesn't matter how you win as long as you get the job done. Thanks for helping me get my post count up.

Not sure why you keep ignoring the gray area. Someone saying that Downey shouldn't be playing over Helm or some other young guy because their development is more important isn't taking a stance one way or the other. It's just qualifying what is more beneficial for the now and the long run. It's like we need to say "Downey should play in all 82 games or the Wings are *******" so we don't get labeled anti-fighting or anti-enforcer. It's not as simple as that. For the record, you can label me whatever you want, but accepting it just ends the conversation and I would like to continue the pointless drivel.

Unnecessary? I'm basically quoting you. It's irrelevant commentary though.

I just think you're trying to overcompensate too much. The only poster who is against having Downey or McCarty back is norrisnick. The majority feel that last year was adequate and the odds are that one of Downey or McCarty will be back and they're fine with it. I think you're fine with it and think it's "OK", but would like to have a bit more. We're all on the same page, but it's the midde of freaking August, all we have left to debate is semantics.

No one knows what the word "toughness' actually means either since there's no definitive definition in terms of hockey. Was Yzerman not tough because he didn't fight? It's such a subjective term.

But you're painting with such a broad brush. Over the last few enforcer threads there's been a grand total of maybe 30 people giving their opinion. The generalizations need to stop.

Please replace the word toughness with fighting so people don't get the idea that they're mutually exclusive.

Because I pointed out that we're the same age? I didn't know that was offensive. We're not different than other teams. Almost every team has had a discussion like this in the past. Rangers fans are always divided as to what Colton Orr actually brings to the team (search for it on HFBoards). Montreal fans bring this up and many wanted to get a real enforcer on their team, but again, divided. Same with Chicago and St. Louis prior to some of their moves. Our team really isn't that different from other teams with the exception that we don't have a guy that's averaged 5+ fights in a while. Then why post it? I'm assuming you meant me, instead of you. I fully understand it, but when people play the "I don't think soandso remembers" card it is almost always interpreted as I remember something that you don't. Anyway, English lesson aside, no one is anti-enfocer, we're just pro-enforcer who can play the game of hockey. Seriously, is there anything someone like Chris Neil couldn't do that Downey did last year? Or whoever else you want to put in that role?

Oh please, don't play that card. Do you remember what's it's like to have a "true" enforcer on the team? Who was it? We're the same age (according to your profile). Teach me something. Joey Kocur was a winner, plain and simple. He had a lot more skill than any of the so called generic enforcers there are today (Parros, Boogaard, McGrattan ect...) Without starting the definition carousel up again, Chris Neil can and does everything that a heavyweight could do. And lets get real here, it isn't the Geroge Parros or Brian McGrattan who need to be enforced. It's the Sean Avery's or Ben Eagers. The heavyweights don't play enough to stir anything up on a consistent basis. Besides even if they did, the heavy's play to fight other heavys. It wouldn't deter them, it would be giving them what they want.

People have been pretty consistent. norrisnick doesn't hate fighting he hates no talent goons. He never protested against McCarty or Kocur fighting years ago because they could actually play the game and contribute in other areas. Fighting isn't exclusive with the Downey-types, I'm sure we'd all welcome a Chris Neil or a Scott Hartnell type if they were brought in.

Could you please list the anti-fighting posters? norrisnick is one, and? It really isn't a black and white issue as much as it's being made out to be by you.

Statements like this are why no one can take these arguments seriously and why these threads get locked. This is pure flamebait and it doesn't matter if it's intentional or not. How do you expect people to respond to this? Just for arguments sake, let's say the Wings won the cup during that post season run, would you classify it as an embarassing win because they didn't get into pointless melees with the teams they beat on the way to the Championship? It's all personal preference and I don't want to get personal but if winning the fightcard is equally as important as winning the actual game to you, you're never going to be proud of this team and it's sad. Last year and the year before the Phoenix Coyotees won more fights than games, I'm confident that Wayne Gretzky isn't resting on his laurels there. I know your response will be that you feel that it should or could go hand in hand, win both, but that isn't the philosophy here. Mike Babcock has gotten these guys to worry about playing between the whistles and it's been what makes us the most successful team in the game and that's really all that matters. Having an attitude and a swagger that we can beat you in any way that you want to play is the most dominant thing you can have and the Wings have had it for two seasons now. The act of the fight isn't as important as the mindset.

When has fighting ever been on the forefront in the playoffs? Fighting is detrimental in the playoffs, which is why enforcers do not play unless they can actually play. I'll say it for the last time, the most heated rivalry in the past 20? years is the Wings/Avs and the fights really were a corner stone of that. Even though those teams hated each other and had the muscle to fight in brawls, fighting was never, ever, important to those games in the playoffs.

Kronwall played the exact same way that he's played on every other big stage. From the time in the season that Babcock challenged Kronwall to start shooting more and be more aggressive Kronwall was a different player. I think we all saw his stickwork improving and his consistentcy getting better once his confidence was at its highest. Rafalski also was injured pretty badly during the playoffs. He admitted quickly after that he wasn't anywhere near close to 100% and felt like it was really affecting him. With that said, he was still great in the playoffs.

Do you have a link for the Conn Smythe voting numbers? I'd love to see some past stats on that.

Eh? Filppula's contract extension wasn't a direct correlation to his point totals or potential point totals. It's easier to put Hudler on a "lesser" line because of the way Babcock likes to match up against the other team. This Red Wings team isn't like any other team in the league. Our "4th" line last playoffs wasn't a prototypical 4th line and it won't be this year. Let go of the stigma!

Yeah well, I had the same thing as my initial lines but had Samuelsson and Cleary swapped. You should feel flattered.

I gave you credit!

To explain why he isn't a center... The Wings have more than 2 scoring lines and there's really no reason to load up the top 6. The way the Wings play they need their players in the top 6 to have a more balanced playing style. Hudler is fine defensively and makes smart plays, but in the playoffs when Babcock is going power for power it's better to have Hudler on a different line so he can focus on his strengths. From the time I've watched Hudler in Grand Rapids and everything I've read, he was converted to winger when he came over. I've never been able to find any faceoff stats to really back it up. I realize he's usually always listed as a center, but so is Franzen. Probably would work fine in the regular season, but I don't like the makeup for the playoffs mainly because I of the center position. It's more about the responsibilities that a center has, it's a lot more than just taking faceoffs and being a primary playmaker. The Wings system is based on defense first, but because of that we're a great offensive team. Hudler is obviously better offensively than Filppula, but Filppula is a better center in the general sense. The Wings are too deep at center still to really mess with it. If we're splitting up Datsyuk and Zetterberg these are the best: Hossa - Datsyuk - Holmstrom Franzen - Zetterberg - Samuelsson Hudler - Filppula - Cleary Maltby - Draper - Kopecky Every line is balanced, every line can go up against any other line. Moving Hudler up and Samuelsson down doesn't really help as much as it waters down the bottom 6. I have no idea of the probability of these lines happening but as NN has touted on other sites, this is as balanced as you're going to get.

They don't want him to, that's my point. Correct, but he had much better speed and is one of the better and more consistent faceoff takers on the team. I didn't mean to imply you have to be big to be a good center or good at faceoffs, but the majority of good centers who are good at faceoffs have a combination of those skills. There's no reason to try an expirement there when there's no reason to. Hudler can be as dynamic as he could ever be playing the wing which is playing to his strengths. Hudler is not built to be a center in North America which is why as soon as he came over he was coverted to wing. He's never been a center here. I'd rather have Filppula be on the 3rd line with Hudler so they can compliment each other. I'd rather see Hossa with Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the "2nd" line with Franzen. It's not rocket science, we know what works here, we know how Babcock likes to use his top 2 lines and having Hudler as the "2nd" line center doesn't work with how he wants it to work. Don't take it as a knock on Hudler.

It goes hand in hand. Winning is entertainment.

Nope, wrong again. People buy into the Wings system, singular. If the Wings had zero fights all year and win the cup that's exactly what I'd want. I want the Wings to win the cup every year, I don't care how it happens. 50 fights, 100 fights or 0 fights, I want my team to be as successful every single season and be the epitome of what every other team strives to be every year. That's how it's gone for 15+ years now, the Wings are ahead of the game. Sure there's the cliches of there's more than one way to skin a cat, but the Wings system is what every fan wants their team to be but rarely can any team achieve it. Anaheim is having a nice little run but their "glory days" will be over quickly because of the way their team is set up in the long run. Fighting has it's place in the game, fighting has it's place on every team including the Wings. But the Wings job is to win games, it isn't to entertain. It's not Ken Holland or Mike Babcock's job to entertain the fans. On that same note, yes the majority of fans love fights, I'm right there with you. But on the totem poll of importance in the big picture in terms of what matters most and whether or not it leaves a void if there weren't more fights during the year after my team wins the cup, I couldn't care less.

None of Cleary, Hudler or Hossa are NHL centers. You still need a center on that line and I really don't care if Hudler was a center in Europe, he's not a center in the NHL (or AHL). There's nothing wrong with that, he's a fine winger but he doesn't have the tools necessary to be a 2nd line center on the Wings which is size, speed and faceoff prowess. Franzen has the size and the speed but he was never put into that spot because Filppula is a much better faceoff man. The entire puck possession system starts with gaining the puck first and foremost. You can want and justify Hudler on the 2nd line, but not as center.

Getzlaf and Perry are exactly what the identify is and those are the guys that the team was based around and had just as much of an impact than any other player. Burke's philosophy obviously is a tough physical team but with or without Burke, Niedermayer and Pronger show up IMO. Whether or not the Ducks win the cup in '07 is subjective but those guys were coming there no matter what.