Heaton

Around the NHL? Do you mean people actually involved in the NHL? Or do you mean hockey message boards? Either way it's a fallacy. We need a ******* pie chart for this discussion anyway, is fighting 80% toughness? 90%? What about physical play (checking, initiating contact)? Going into corners? Taking punishment? Getting knocked down and getting up? Now what about mental toughness? Playing through pain? Playing through injury? Does fighting trump ALL of them when talking about toughness? So lets see, the Wings are a physical team (Stuart, Kronwall, Maltby, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Cleary, Kopecky, Lilja ect...) 99% of the Wings routinely go into corners or the "tough" areas. The Wings take punsihment and dole it out, they get knocked down and get back up and they obviously have the mental toughness. They all play through pain without thinking twice and injury but if Osgood gets tapped and the Wings don't go apes*** and start swinging the Wings are soft? Do you realize how retarded that sounds? How juvinelle that sounds? Look, fighting is part of it but I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned if the Wings didn't go into corners than if they didn't fight. The Wings will fight this year, they'll have times where it's needed but when calling a team soft or not, fighting IS NOT the deciding factor since it's almost always useless in the playoffs. Makes no sense that you could be soft in the regular season but insanely tough in the playoffs like the Wings are.

Waiting for him to sign in terms of other guys signing as well? No where but that's usually how it works, sign the most important guy first then the others will follow: Holland: Not really. I would say to you, I mean, what really needs to be done, and then we're ready for camp, I gotta get Filppula signed, he's obviously arbitration a week from Friday, a week from tomorrow, August 1st, I've had lots of conversations with his agent, Bill Zito, on two-year deals and longer-term deals, and, obviously, it's going to come to a conclusion over the next few days. Kyle Quincey's got to be signed, and then we've got our offers out to McCarty and Downey, um, we're really not in any position to do anything with any player other than a two-way now. We've got, because of the cap, because of the, Darren Helm, Ville Leino's a Finnish kid we that signed, we want to see what he can do; we want the options to be to put the best team on the ice, and last year Downey was on a two-way the entire year, and spent the entire year with us, so...I'm trying to convince, we're trying to put the best team we can on the ice, but at the same time, we need to have some flexibility in the cap world.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/A2Y/...ority_number_1/ For people that'd like to listen.

Holland said he's waiting until Filppula is signed to see how much money they have for Chelios. Money isn't an issue but they still have to make sure everything fits. As far as the Downey/McCarty contracts are concerned, Holland mentioned that Downey was on a two-way deal all last year and never was actually reassigned to Grand Rapids. I'd say it's only a matter of time before one of those guys gets re-signed, probably in a week or so after Filppula get's straightened out.

In the sense that the Wings aren't soft?

That's actually the opposite of irony.

It still would've failed I'd imagine.

That's actually a quite poor comparison. I love hockey, I love the Red Wings. I'm entertained by watching hockey in general and I'm even more entertained by watching the Red Wings which are my passion. Even if some games can get stale during the dog days of the season I don't believe that a 1 minute fight is going to fufill my entertainment needs. I like fights, I watch the '97 brawl whenever there's nothing else on TV. I hate the WWE style (Larauqe/Ivanans) useless scraps, hilarious on Youtube but really are all fluff with no substance. Other people love them, I'm fine with that I fully endorse peoples love of fighting but the Wings style doesn't accommodate 30 fights a year, it just doesn't. Whenever Downey or McCarty fought this year there was a purpose, that's what I respect.

Basically what you're asking for is an extra 10-15 fights for entertainment value that have no effect either way on the team or outcome of the game. That kinda goes against why this team is so successful. Babcock isn't going to preach discipline then demand a few fights for entertainements sake. And your mindset has everything to do with the argument. You're putting your own wants in front of the team, which is fine I guess, you're a fan and can have your own opinion.

The irony is overwhelming. No one has bought into a 'soft team', people buy into the Red Wings team who just happen to be the best team in terms of front office, winning and doing almost everything exclusively right. Not believing that toughness is exclusive to fighting isn't clamoring for a 'soft' team. The Wings are as tough as any team in the league, with or without Aaron Downey or Darren McCarty. They just add an element that have intangibles that the players and coaches respect. Like I've said a million times, the majority of people who want a change in style or a sizeable change in personnel have an inferiority complex, like the winning on the scoreboard is hollow without winning a few fights to "justify" it. Wanting Aaron Downey on the team because you feel he adds an element that will help the team win games or make players accountable (and because you like fights) is one thing. Wanting Aaron Downey on the team because then your (and when I say "your" I use it in a general sense) manhood is justified and you feel it lessens the uneducated references to the Wings on internet message boards is another. The toughness that matters the most is the toughness that makes you win in the playoffs.

I do too. I think this works both ways, the opinion of people that want more than one fighter or enforcer on the team is exaggerated and the people who feel that one is enough or even none is exaggerated. The thing is, the Wings have balance, almost as perfect as you can get. The Wings have the grinders, the physical guys, the skill guys ect... The balance is there. I hope you don't look at the Wings and see all skill and finesse, I don't know how you could. In the playoffs this year the Wings punished the other teams, wore them out and they were afraid coming across the blueline, exactly what everyone wants to see. Obviously Drake was a huge contributer physically wise and has more big hit ability than a guy like Kopecky but the difference isn't as great as I've read. The Wings will find someone that's main concern is dropping the gloves but look at the team we have now. Obviously the Wings aren't a 'fighting' team that sends messages with their fists, they don't have to be. Stuart fights, he'll stick up for his teammates, as will Lilja and Cleary to an extent and Kopecky will fight the lower middle weights if needed. If Quincey sticks you know he'll want to make his mark and he'll try to do that with his fists. I guess the problem comes with word definitions. I believe the Wings are as tough as any team in the league, they just don't fight as much. The Wings never back down or get rattled, they initiate contact and dole out just as much punishment as recieved. Having a guy like Downey or McCarty is great because they fit into the team concept, the concept that has worked for 15+ years. It's not going to change just because people are worried now for some reason that because the Wings won the cup now we have to worry about teams gunning for us? The course is exactly the same as if lost in the first round last year. I think we're on the same page harold, one or two guys who will do the fighting is fine, they players like it, hell they liked Brad Norton. But the notion that something actually needs to be changed is foolish. 2008 Stanley Cup Champions.

Downey and McCarty are good at their jobs, but it's pretty easy to find a guy who can play 3-4 minutes and fight. The only hard part is to keep them under control so they don't hurt the team with stupid penalties. There's probably a dozen guys available who could do the same job, probably why they get two-way deals.

Franzen isn't and shouldn't be a fighter but there's also a difference between going toe to toe and what Walker did right there. As far as protecting Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa ect... the only time any action really needed to be taken place is the hit on Lidstrom last year. Other than that? It doens't happen because these guys don't put themseleves in the position to get cheapshotted. That was the first time in Lidstrom's CAREER that he's ever been that vulnerable. The majority of the time it's the Wings initiating the 'cheapshots' and punishment. If Downey and McCarty were smart, they'd have already signed their contracts. No clue what McCarty is waiting for if it isn't just a paper jam in the fax machine. I hope they get signed, I really do, but I really question how many games they'll play if they do just because of the personnel who will be there every night (baring injuries).

They were kept together because the options to play with them apart weren't as strong as a Marian Hossa. NN has beat this drum since we signed him, Babcock has split up Datsyuk and Z to start the season every year that he's coached, but it never stuck because we didn't have an emerging Franzen and a superstar winger to put with both of them. If Hudler fits on one of those lines, sweet. But if we have our best playmaker and our second best playmaker and they're both playmaking centers, it only makes sense to put Hossa with one of them.

And by someone who hasn't been a center since coming over to NA. Being a center and being a winger have completely different responisiblities. Hudler is best suited for the wing in the NHL which is why he's playing there. On the same note, it doesn't necessarily make sense to bring in Hossa and not play him with one of Datsyuk or Zetterberg.

We're gonna need a center on that 2nd line, eva.

Cleary - Datsyuk - Hossa Franzen - Zetterberg - Holmstrom Hudler - Filppula - Samuelsson Kopecky - Draper - Helm Lidstrom - Rafalski Kronwall - Stuart Lebda - Lilja

If Holland is commited on having McCarty back, he should feel obligated to sign here.

They've been offered two-way contracts, we're just waiting on them to sign it.

Howard: http://nhlpa.com/WebStats/PlayerBiography.asp?ID=27058 Ericsson: http://nhlpa.com/WebStats/PlayerBiography.asp?ID=26120

Babcock said early in the season last year that he envsions the path that Hudler tales as similar to the one Tomas Holmstrom took when he started out here. Mostly on the 4th line, while filling in higher up and getting significant PP time, which Hudler is doing. I understand people look at the lines and break them down into Scoring, Scoring, Checking, Checking but that's just the basic format that you usually see on video games. Hudler is a solid, smart player with next to elite offensive ability. He's not poor defensively, but I wouldn't consider him very good either, he's what I'd say is a smart hockey player, he just knows how to make the right plays the majority of the time so that he doesn't get into trouble. While the 'handling' of Hudler has been a hot topic issue since the beginning of last season I've always been an advocate of the way he's been used, mainly becuase he's produced well in the roles he's been in and been a widely positive impact on the team without really being put into a position to hurt it. I think we've all noticed that he rarely, if ever, played in OT during the regular season, but look at the drastic change in this past post season. Not only did he play in OT he was on the ice with under 2 mins to go in the Cup clinching game, that would've never happened in the previous season. Basically what I'm getting at is there's nothing wrong with the role he's in, I get that there's a stigma with the 4th line and for some reason people classify that as he being in the doghouse or whatever. To me, it is just where Babcock and the coaching staff feels he is best utilized to help the team and after this post season run why question it so strongly? Hudler will continue to grow as a player, he'll move up the ranks and eventually get to the spot that some fans feel he 'rightly' belongs in. He's a 2nd year player with two quality seasons under his belt, a lot of confidence and a good fit on the team in a role that is ultimately positive for everyone.

McCrimmon was a popular assistant in Atlanta, where Ilya Kovalchuk, Bobby Holik, Marian Hossa and Mark Recchi all made pitches for him to get the head job after Bob Hartley was fired at the beginning of the 2007-08 season. The Thrashers instead promoted John Anderson from their AHL affiliate after Anderson won the Calder Cup this season with the Wolves. Sounds good.

Speed makes up for a lot, but so does hockey sense, which Hudler has a lot of. If Hudler had Scotty Gomez speed, he'd be a superstar by now.

It just has to do with how much they're paid where they're playing at. If they're in the NHL, Ericsson would be making X amount, if they're in the AHL he makes Y amount. Was that it?

George McPhee has gone on record as saying Semin has more pure skill than Ovechkin. Ovechkin is obviously the better player, though.