Heaton

Why dodge the question? I never said I didn't care that no one 'stood up' for either player, I just don't think it's as big of a deal as you make it out to be. If the Red Wings team unity is so fraile that they need constant reminders that their teammate has their back, I don't know what to say. My personal belief? No, I don't think it's a big deal that no one 'stood up' for Brett Lebda or Jason Williams. Would I have more of a problem if it happened to Datsyuk or Zetterberg and nothing happened? Maybe, I guess, but I've never been of the belief that reactionary stuff does anything. You seem to think it matters more.

He has said he wants to play until the 2010 Olympics.

Do you have any examples other than a vague generalization? Return to ice-capade toughness, are you kidding me? If you're just going to use examples of when Torres hit Williams or when Drake hit Lebda don't waste my time, I'm not looking for cheap shots I'm looking at when the Red Wings actually purposely did not play a tough grinding game. Hell, I've read people all last season talk about how boring the games turned into be because of the gameplan that Babcock puts forth. The Red Wings during the regular season almost ALWAYS adjust their game to what team they're playing, as you know, they're not a big physical team who will beat you that way and they don't have to be. If they can win games by just playing the puck possession game during the regular season, who cares? Are you actually worred about regular season success or are you talking about just for your own personal enjoyment? If it's the latter, don't make it out to be something that has to be done in order for them to prove something to you when nothing is actually proven during the regular season. Hell, if they never get more than 10 hits per game during the regular season, win the West, then turn it on during the playoffs, will it be a fluke every year?

How many games did he play during their run to the cup?

Well, Rafalski isn't a shooter like Schneider was and while I agree with you in that I'd rather not have Rafalski with Lidstrom, I'd actually guess Lidstrom's numbers would go up.

Agreed, I was lucky enough to be there and it's something I'll never forget.

Uh, if you're expecting the Red Wings to carry over the intensity shown over the playoff games throughout an 82 game schedule you're insane. No team is as physical or intense in the regular season as they are in the playoffs and it sure as hell doesn't prove anything was a "fluke" if they're not breaking recent team hit records like the did in the playoffs last year. This is Mike Babcock's team now, of course it's going to be more grinding and physical he's never stopped preaching that from the time he got here up until now. If you're expecting Anaheim style phsyical play and toughness you're going to be dissapointed because that's not how we play. They're successful they're way and we'll be successful our way. We're a hybrid of a dump and chase / puck possession gameplan, we can beat you more than one way and it was shown last year. It wasn't a fluke.

Chelios also said he'd never play for the Red Wings.

Marc Crawford is why.

Completely agree with the overall order to a certain extent and here's my reasons: When the Wings started their rise in the early '90's, they had no competition in Detroit. The Lions still had Barry but they were going no where and everyone knew it, the Tigers were awful and the Pistons were awful. Detroit and Michigan in general needed a winning team and the Red Wings happened to be it. That traveled all the way up until the Pistons won their championship in 2004. The Wings were a year removed from the cup and they had just gotten swept by Anaheim (or maybe I'm mistaken and it was when we lost to Calgary, it doesn't reallly matter) When that happened it wasn't as big as when the Wings won the cup in '97, the buildup just wasn't the same and I say that as a Michigan Sports fan, not just a Wings fan. In Detroit, the Lions are king, they haven't won a god damn thing in modern history and people still find the time to make them the most relevant, I, personally don't get it, but that's why the NFL is the monster it is. The Tigers are next, what they did for the city last year is what stories are made of, if there weren't so many mindless Lions drones out there the Tigers would easily be #1, but anyone an see that if the Lions ever got good (ha ha) it would be no contest. The Tigers pulled the city back together, much like what the Wings did but to a greater extent. Detroit will always be a baseball town. The Pistons are big, but they're not that big, from my experiences most people are Lions or Tiger fans first, then Wings "fans" then they watch some Pistons games. I just think Basketball as a sport is going in the wrong direction and it's turning some people off. Personally, I just think the Pistons, much like the Wings to an extent, are getting or have gotten stale to people. As funny as it sounds, winning is boring to a lot of people, unless it's fresh and brand new.

And we're not paying Bertuzzi or Lang 4m/yr. Dustin Penner is not worth 4m/yr, hell Eric Staal who already has a 100 point season under his belt and led his team in points while winning the cup is only making 4.5m. What has Penner done?

He said Corey Perry is untouchable as well. As for 4m/yr for Penner? Holy overpayment.

I meant in terms of Holland adding size/toughness.

No? Did I lead you to believe we did?

Obviously they're on board with the philosophy. What makes them pansies? Did I say it was awful to question Holland? He hasn't "replaced" the toughness that has been "lost" over the years, instead he's built a sound competitive hockey team that is at or near the top of the league every season without being handcuffed to any bad players. I feel like he has a solid plan on how to operate in a capped era and 2 years in we're already in the conference finals. You can disagree with his views and how he does stuff, I don't really care. I don't agree with a lot about what he does, but I'm ultimately satisfied in the direction the team is going. All I meant is Holland isn't the only one making decisions, Holland doesn't run the draft and I'd bet anything there'a room full of people who give their input on who the Wings go out and get including Scotty, Stevie, Jimmy D ect... And of course Holland gets the credit and of course he deserves the blame, but I bring it up so there is an understand when it's been given or received. Look at a team like San Jose, big, fast, physical, but they don't know how to win. That's what you need, you don't need genetics to be successful, you need the know-how on what to do to win games and this team knows how. All I'm getting at is if the organization didn't believe in the way the team was going, you'd see changes. Obviously Babcock, Holland, Nill, Jimmy D and Illich believe we're going in the right direction and while I don't care if you disagree and I may disagree at times, at the end of the day I trust them. They've given me no reason not to.

Why make a statement like that when last year proved it was wrong? While we didn't keep Bertuzzi, Calder and we may potentially lose Markov what leads you to believew we're not going to be "adding size"? Size is only good when the size comes with good hockey sense and the ability to contribute in our game plan. You're absolutely right and the reason is their salary demands. I think it's funny that you and Lou seem to believe that Holland is the only one making these decisions on who the Wings go out and get.

We've been over this, but where we disagree is in your thinking that the Wings are pretty far away from winning the cup, even with going to the conference finals last year, I disagree, I believe going to the conference finals last year showed how close we actually are. I think we have the right team makeup to win a cup, I'm not saying you're alluding to this, but you don't have to use Anaheim's philosophy to win a cup. Hell, look at Carolina, while they had more players who fought during the year, their team makeup really isn't that much different from ours when they won it all. I've seen a lot of people say, one playoff year doesn't prove anything, alright, what if the Wings do the same thing next season or go further? Does that prove that they're "tough" enough? If we won the cup last year, would you be saying the same thing? Look, you believe the team needs to get bigger and stronger to compete with the cup, I look at last year and believe that we have all the tools, we just need less injuries. Pretty hard to get excited about seeing the Wings bulldoze through the regular season with little to no competition.

Two way contract does not mean they're exempt from waivers, it just means they have two different pay grades when up and down.

If your expectations every single season is cup or bust and anything less than that is major dissapointment and a complete failure, then you'll never be satisfied.

Was intimidation why the Wings lost last year?

Make sure you use this montra for every team then. Just curious, how many playoff years does make it a regular basis? If not one, it surely can't be two, so Anaheim can't be the standard. I just don't understand why you're so hellbent on completely dismissing what this team did last year, along with virtually everyone else in this thread. It almost seems disrespectful to the team.

This is where I take the biggest issue, size had nothing to do with why the Wings lost the series. Selanne and McDonald certainty didn't muscle Lilja off the puck in OT. Niedermayer certaintly didn't check Cleary when he fell down giving Niedermayer an open shot to beat Hasek in game 2. Size didn't have anything to do with the fluke goal off of Nick's stick at the end of game 5. I know what you're getting at and I emphasize, but you're talking in a general sense, nothing that happened to the Wings this post season that resulted in losing the series to the Ducks was a direct correlation to size and toughness being at the TOP of the list of reasons as to why we lost. It just didn't happen. I'm not saying it isn't a problem, I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying there's more than one way to skin a cat, and our forumla, with Babcock's coaching is a forumla built to win with the team we have right now. No other team in the Western Conference got that much more significantly better from last season that it will dethrone us. Anaheim? got worse if Selanne and Niedermayer retire. San Jose? Debateable, but even at best. Nashville? Worse. LA? Better, but who cares? Same goes with St. Louis, Chicago, Edmonton, Minnesota, Calgary, Vancouver and whoever else. Colorado? Suspect goaltending with suspect defense. I just don't see it. The Wings are practically even from last year with most of the fat cut off.

That depends really, was Ottawa a better team than we were? The Wings were the only team who gave the Ducks a run and we had them on the ropes, I don't see that as us being *far* away from winning the cup. We were injured in a lot of important positions, I'm not using that as an excuse, but I don't think we're worrying about this as much if the injury bug wasn't so nasty. I guess I don't understand why we don't have the lineup to win the cup. Who is better in the Western Conference? The Eastern Conference? Did we get that much worse? Did other teams get that much better? Explain to me what I'm not seeing. Our team didn't overachieve, we didn't play above our heads, we played right about to our potential. After the previous post season failures and the general tone around Wings fan nation, I disagree. I don't disagree and to steal a quote from Aaron Ward, it was a coming together of a team of sorts, but this team is different, Anaheim didn't need a brawl to get their team over the hump, they just had the least injuries, the most bounces and played the best out of all the teams in the playoffs. The players do have each others backs, I'm not sure if you're implying that there's a chemistry problem or a morale problem on the team, you don't get as far as the Wings did without being a team with a capital T. And that is a major problem I have with the NHL today, every hit, every semi-hard hit has to be "answered" it has to be looked at as if a grave injustice was done. A few years ago that wasn't the case, a hard check to one of your stars didn't always turn into a need for revenge or retaliation. Now a days since there's not as much fighting, players look for ANYTHING to give them a reason to go after someone and I think that's wrong, I think that actually removes some passion instead of instilling it.

I don't have a problem with people who want fighters on the team, I'm of the mindset that our team is tough enough to win the cup, it was demonstrated last year and the loss of Bertuzzi and potentially Markov isn't going to take us from 1 game and 30 seconds from going to the finals to not getting back there. The problem I have is when people are of the belief that having fighters on the team will prevent anything. Players got cheapshotted during all 3 of our cup runs, I don't have any proof, I don't have any videos, I just know it happened. This day and age it's totally different from back then and it's just not the instigator rule. If someone game and took Datsyuk's head off which resulted in a concussion for Datsyuk and he's gone for the year, I wouldn't get very much satisfaction if X player beat up the player who did it, at that point it's moot. 1 beating, 5 beatings, 20 beatings doesn't bring back Datsyuk into the lineup. Fighting has it's place, but the Red Wings have the players to win the cup, at least this year. Our team is battle tested, they know what it takes to win, the Vets already knew, but now the young guys do too. This year wasn't a fluke, Bertuzzi probably helped the team play a bit tougher, but he wasn't the straw that stirred the drink, Dan Cleary was. Johan Franzen was. Hell, even Lilja was. We're not the softest team in the league (I realize you didn't say that Harold), we're not the toughest in the league, we don't have to fight to be tough. Yzerman was tough, he didn't have to fight. I'm not against fighting, I love a good fight, but only when it means something. Geroge Parros squaring off against George Laraque just so they have something to do with their 3 minutes doesn't do it for me, sorry, I just don't get all excited for the WWE style bouts. Like Holland said, whether you mock him or make sarcastic comments out of it, toughness is just like everything else, you can't have enough. Just like you can't have enough good forwards, good defensemen, good goaltending. You can't have enough speed, you can't have enough goalscoring, you can't have enough heart. I understand where people are coming from, for the most part. For instance, when I read what Lou has to say, it has less to do with whether or not his moves really help the team and more to do with putting out a product that he will enjoy more. I bet that if we lost in the first round, but had a tough, gritty, 75 fight team, he'd enjoy it more than if we won the cup with what we have now. I could be wrong, but that's the vibe that I get from him. I'm just sort've amazed that these threads are still popping up, we got to the WCF, we beat 2 tough teams and were basically 30 seconds from winning the cup. I'll go out on that limb, we win game 5, we win the cup. Period. That would've been beating the Calgary Flames, who we had no shot against, the San Jose Sharks, who we had no shot against and the Anaheim Ducks, who we had no shot against. This team can use more of everything, but if we lose in the first round next year, it won't be because we got "pushed around", it won't be because we didn't fight anyone, it'll be because we got outplayed by a team who wanted it more than us or we just rolled over and died. This team showed a lot to me this post season, Dan Cleary is a warrior, he DESTROYED Phanuef worse than I've ever seen Phaneuf clocked before in his 2 years of playing in this league. Fraznen is a playoff performer, plain and simple. Andreas Lilja CAN PLAY HOCKEY, he can use his body, he's not worthless. Quincey, Chelios, Draper, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, who backed down? Who got manhandled? Who was knocked off their game so they weren't able to produce? I would've liked to see Datsyuk and Z play better on the road, but other than that, who made space for them? Holmstrom? Sure, a bit, but they did it, battling through the beat tough meanies. We could get tougher, but we're tough enough now to win a cup, there's always tinkering you can do, but this team, right now, is either the best team in the NHL or at worst the second best, and that's a good place to be.

He's making 1.336m/yr for the next 3 years I believe.