hamip1998

While not an enforcer by any means, I'll bet Shanny in his prime could have done fairly well against CL. He did fight some guys, with some measure of success, that he probably had no business going with (Brashear for one).

It's apples and oranges when comparing Shanny and Fedorov. The type of game that Shanahan played for years is bound to take more of a physical toll on a player than the style that Fedorov played. Both were great and I loved seeing them both in their prime. Fedorov dominated the ice at both ends for a few years, yes. He hasn't done much of anything since leaving Detroit. Shanny's career has been more consistent. Looking at both careers from beginning to end, I would give the nod to Shanny over Feds for the HHOF. That said, I would take Feds in his prime over Datsyuk if I were building a team for a championship run. If I wanted a team that was going to be great year after year, I would take Datsyuk for sure.

Anyone in Northern Ohio that has an elitist attitude towards Michigan or Detroit should take a long look in the mirror. I was born in Akron and remember what this area looked like when the rubber industry went flat. I grew up hearing my dad talk about the times when he used to park cars in downtown Akron back in the early fifties and he said you couldn't see the sidewalks for people. Fast forward 25 years and my memories are of boarded up storefronts, abandoned buildings, and the homeless men and women that made up the Akron of my childhood. When I was in the Navy, most of my really good to best friends were from Michigan. We were all kids from the Rust Belt and we "got" each other. Meeting those guys for the first time was like meeting a cousin who lived across town from you rather than speaking to a total stranger. We played euchre and knew what Vernors was and were more likely to order a shot and a beer rather than a trendy cocktail. When I was around them, being from Ohio or Michigan was a badge of honor and pride, not the butt of a joke. My wife and two boys stayed overnight in downtown Detroit a couple of years ago, and we were surprised at how much we enjoyed the city and the people that we met. All you hear are the horror stories, and it's a shame that Detroit has taken the beating that it has over the years. I remember my wife and I having a brief moment when we stepped off of the people mover when we looked at each other and said "geez, this beats the heck out of Cleveland". People from the metro area, and Michigan in general, should be proud. While you may have your problems, you definitely have pride, heart, and as Mitch Albom writes "courage". Stay strong my Midwestern brothers and sisters. We will pull through.

Sorry...double post

Yup. Agree 100%. My rule of thumb is that I treat each thread like I treat a television channel or a radio station: If I don't like it, I don't watch/listen/read. Just because someone gets their panties in a knot over something doesn't mean that you have to. If you don't like the nature of the thread, then don't read or post in it.

QFT Too many posters fail to see the distinction. I think that a lot of those being accused of panicking are just having a discussion about the product that they see on the ice. Few are saying that the Wings won't repeat, won't make the playoffs, etc. It's been strange to see this team, which didn't change much at all from last year, play like a different team altogether. Fans are frustrated, as I am sure the players and coaches are. Last night was definitely an improvement though.

Nice to see the team return to form. This is the type of game that I have been waiting to see from the team for a while. Not too much flash, just out hustling the other team and making smart decisions with the puck, and yes - puck control. This game could have easliy had a much higher score. Boy do we miss Homer on the power play. Great effort.

Last time I checked, this was a discussion board. The guy has a point or two. While I agree it isn't the time for anything drastic, it does make for interesting discussion / speculation about what would get the team on better footing. Everyone knows that we, and all other teams, are handcuffed a bit by the cap and this isn't NHL 09 where you can sign, trade, demote players at will. All passionate sports fans do this when the team isn't playing up to their expectations. Unfortunately or fortunately, this team has some fans with VERY high expectations given the high quality of the team over the past 12 years. While you don't have to agree with what is being said it isn't necessary to resort to name calling. If you don't like the thread, don't participate.

Agree. Agree. Agree. Disagree. The defense is NOT fine, but I agree that the forwards aren't coming back to the defensive zone as hard, with the exception of Hossa. Maybe some shuffling of lines would help...defensive pairings as well.

Three LGRW whipping boys who haven't played badly: Sammy Lilja Maltby (he has been hustling out there...can't expect more from a 4th liner than what he is giving) Guys who haven't played at the level they did last year: Lids Raffi Draper Ozzie Kronwall Flip Stuart (though both he and Kronner are improving) Pavel (sorry guys...to me he looks uninspired out there) Maybe sitting some of these guys would light a fire under their butts. I don't think trading anyone away is the answer. What I see, personally, is a lack of drive and maybe a lack of confidence. Maybe they are tired? It almost looks like these guys are worn out. After the first seven or eight minutes of the game yesterday, the Wings looked great: moving the puck well, making good decisions, limiting Boston to ZERO shots on goal. Basically, what we saw most of the year last year. Boston scored on their first shot, which sometimes happens, and everything went to hell. The team is going to have up and down periods throughout the season, just as they did last year. It's clear that other teams have figured out what they need to do to beat the Wings - mainly don't give them any room and play the body. The team has a disgusting amount skill and good speed, but not much size. Last year, guys seemed to play bigger than they phyiscally were. While I don't see the team backing down from phyiscal confrontation and they are willing to hit (sometimes getting WAY out of position to do so, Mr. Stuart), they aren't winning individual battles for the puck like they were last year. Also, I agree 100% with the last post by Lets Go Pavel. Every team is playing us like it's the Cup finals. It's early, and all of this is fixable. How, I don't know. It's easy to point out the problems, but offering real solutions isn't so easy. We have to have confidence that we have one of the best coaches in the league and the best GM in the business. They still have time to fix things.

No, you didn't SAY he was a bad fan, but posting that comment seemed like it was implied that he was by making the statement that he did. Take it easy, friend. No hard feelings, ok?

NickA has a point. It doesn't make him a "bad fan". It's his opinion and he has a right to pose the question. In fact, I was thinking the very same thing this morning about this team. Last year, with the exception of February when they were decimated with injuries, you could watch this team and easily say that they were the class of the league. Granted, they had hiccups here and there but for the most part they were a machine. Changes from last year: Hasek retired. More pressure on Ozzie this year. He is in the spotlight as the #1 netminder and has not been at the level he was last year. To be fair though, team defense has been mediocre at best. Out with McLellan, in with McCrimmon (sp?). We don't really know what impact this has had really. Dallas Drake retired. He brought a veteran presence and tons of grit. Plus, not having ever won the cup was a good motivational tool for both him and his teammates. Add Hossa. Inserting another superstar forward to a team that already has a couple of superstar forwards can only be a good thing, right? His play is nothing short of impressive. I always knew he was a great player, but I never realized that this guy worked as hard on the ice as he does. The only problem is that the arguably most dangerous line in hockey is now split across two lines (ZDH). Has Lids really lost a step, or is he playing with a defensive partner that has been somewhat irresponsible in his own end this year? Could the visor really be affecting his vision? What I see as the issues: Most analysts stated that after last season when we added Hossa that "the best got better". On paper, yes. The chemistry of this team has altered somewhat and the team seems to have lost some of it's drive and hunger. I think as a group they felt robbed after the Anaheim series the year before. They had something to prove last year. What do they have to prove this year? We haven't had the same good luck with injuries this year as we did last year, though it could be a lot worse. Not having a guy like Cleary (the man plays with a total disregard for his own health and safety), the veteran presence of Cheli, and other various peices in and out of the lineup has hurt the chemistry of this team. I think that it's obvious that they don't have this dialed in yet as far as the lines are concerned. Regardless of what Babcock said at the start of training camp, some of the older legs on this team look a bit tired. Having to play those extra six games, plus participating in all of the off season festivities, didn't give the older players like Draper or Lids as much time to bounce back from a long season. A huge factor is that a lot of other teams in the NHL are trying to "out-Wing" the Red Wings and doing a pretty good job of it. When you are #1, everyone is gunning for you. These coaches aren't dumb and they figured out if you don't let the wings play a puck posession game you can derail the system. The wings have been forced to play chip and chase so much more this year than last year, and that isn't necessarily their forte. When I was watching the Montreal game, when one of the Canadiens would carry the puck into their offensive zone, you would usually only see our two defensemen. Many times when one of the Wings would carry the puck into the offensive zone there were at least two skaters back helping on defense. It's hard to get quality scoring chances when the other team is defending like that. Gotta give credit to the Canadiens, though. They deserved the win. I don't think anyone is "panicking" here. It is a little frustrating as a fan to see a team that played so well during the course of the season last year struggle like they have. The record IS deceiving. The season is still young and there is plenty of time to get the ship righted.

True, but his defensive game isn't the best and he doesn't kill penalties. Give me an all-arounder any day over a pure scorer. In fact, I would argue that Hossa has shown so far this year to be a superior player (I have been impressed with how hard he backchecks). As someone stated earlier, Crosby isn't going to improve at the same rate as he ages...he is going to have a down year at some point, though his down year may be better than a lot of players good years. He is a stat machine, but he hasn't matured as a leader or a player. He has to earn his status...he shouldn't be anointed with it. IMO he hasn't quite earned the level of praise he has received thus far. He has some mighty big shoes to fill (size #99) and he hasn't quite grown into them yet. Let's not confuse potential with performance. Trying to discuss this topic on the boards is like talking about the Presidential election: most people either think Crosby is the second coming of Christ on skates or they think he is overrated. Neither side is going to convince the other.

My first thought when I was trying to cope with the new angles was "this almost looks like it does from the bench". As the game went on, though, it felt like I was watching the game with tunnel vision. It was hard to watch the plays progress. I also like watching what happens away from the play, and that was impossible to do. I think it's nice to cut to these angles occasionally, but I prefer the tried and true.

Sorry...posted by mistake

Like I said, he would still be great, but I am not sure that he would quite have the numbers he is posting now. Whenever I watch Eastern conf. games, the teams seem play more wide open offensively and are a little less defensively oriented. Granted, there are still some stellar two-way players in the East (Brin D'Amour obviously comes to mind), but it seems to me that a lot of what I see when I watch teams in the East play is more energy focused on offense and less on defense, especially by the forwards. I think Crosby and Ovechkin both benefit from playing more teams that are less defensively oriented. As far as how good Crosby is going to be in 6 yrs., it's conceivable that his offensive capabilities have peaked. That's not saying that they are going to decline any time soon, but this COULD be as good as it gets for him offensively. Even if that's true, most players still won't reach his level of offensive output. His real potential for growth is obviously in his defensive game. Kind of like what Stevie had to do early in his career, Sid may have to sacrifice being a point producing machine to be a more complete player in order to finally reach the brass ring. The question is, will he do so? We don't know what Crosby in his final form is going to be. Is the potential there? Sure. Is the outcome decided? Certainly not. Again, a lot of things change in 6 yrs. Anyone with kids can tell you that the maturation process doesn't follow a steady curve upward. Saying that he is going to be n% better than he is today based upon his progress thus far isn't an accurate way to gauge where is going to be with his game down the road. Dats and Z both took time to mature. That growth process made them into better all-around players RIGHT NOW than Crosby, numbers aside. We know what we have in the Euro twins. Like the old saying says, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. That's why I wouldn't trade for Crosby.

Everyone talks about how much better Crosby is going to be down the road. Chances are, sure, he will improve but how much no one knows. Lot's of things can happen to derail a career. Also, who can say that AO won't improve just as much or more? Even if they weren't Wings, I would take Pav or Hank over the Kid. So much better defensively and much less expensive. I would consider one or the other for AO, though, but not both. In that scenario, whether you give up Pav or Hank, you are still left with a hell of a center. I still wonder if Crosby would have quite the same career playing a different team and in the Western conference. He would still be great, but I don't think he would have quite the same numbers.

Watch it guys...it's all fun and games until someone loses an arm.

I agree. Having a guy go out and stir up trouble to get the team fired up is fine, I have no problem with that. Doing it when you have very little to absolutely no chance to win the game just makes you look like a ****** and a poor sport who can't handle their emotions. Now, if you are in a playoff series, that changes the landscape a miniscule amount. Even so, what Iggy did to Schneids a couple of years ago (I don't care who he did it to, Red Wing or not) isn't the way to do it IMO. Run the guy (not BOARD him), talk s***, push, shove, face wash, even throw a well placed elbow to somewhere other than the head...whatever - but DO NOT USE THE STICK. We try and teach our kids stick discipline from day one. How would someone like to see a bunch of 9 year old squirts acting like this when they are getting their butts handed to them? As a hockey parent who also works the bench during games, I can tell you that people would FREAK. As a pro, they get a pass. Sorry...kids watch hockey too and they do what they see the guys they admire do as well. Not to drag other players into this, but Jumbo Joe does this at times as well to a lesser degree when he is losing and the game is totally out of reach (cheap shots...I don't recall him using his stick to do it), and you hear announcers and such credit this behavior to his "competitiveness". That's not competitiveness, that's being immature. That's what pissed me off so much about the Pen's incessant whining to the press and the ref's during last years SCF. There are ways to handle that situation, but that wasn't a good one.

I haven't looked at the video on the Naslund hit in a while, so I am not going to argue that point with you. The league said the hit wasn't dirty, but obviously the Canuck players thought so or Moore wouldn't have fought Cooke, assuming that the reason they fought was because of the Naslund hit. No, I don't think Hit + Injury = Dirty. We can argue this all day. The hit on Lidstrom by Lapierre last year, technically and according to the league, was clean also. Questionable, yes, but no fine or suspension came of it. So why did Downey go and take out Lappy? Why? Because you don't rattle another teams star player without getting payback. Moore is a hockey player and knows this. If that is why he and Cooke fought, then yes, that makes Bertuzzi's actions that much more reprehensible. What Bertuzzi did was clearly wrong and I am not defending his actions. All I was saying is I don't think he went out of his way to break the guys neck, and that it was probably a result of the dogpile that happened after Bertuzzi jumped him (I guess I should have said that before). Lots of people want to make Bertuzzi out to be this remorseless son of ***** who intended on ending Moore's career. We don't really know for sure. I don't think so though. I think he did something stupid and the outcome, while not intended, was certainly unfortunate. That doesn't make him a criminal, that makes him someone who didn't use good judgement. Really, he probably shouldn't have been reinstated. But the NHL, who is responsible for punishing players who break the rules, chose to let Bertuzzi play again. Steve Moore didn't deserve to have his neck fractured. He knows that hockey is a risky sport and things happen, even incidents that stem from the poor judgement of another player. How bad off is he? Is he in a wheelchair or bedridden and on a ventilator? Can he not find another means of supporting himself financially other than playing hockey? If he was injured to that extent, then he should be taken care of financially and Bertuzzi should have never been allowed to spend another day in the NHL. Should he receive some sort of compensation? Sure. My opinion is that 38 million and possible criminal charges is a bit much. Bertuzzi IS paying a price for what he did. His career and reputation will always carry the weight of this incident and anything he has done on the ice will be overshadowed by it. He had to have lost money during the suspension and the lockout, and he hasn't been close to the same player that he was before this all went down. He can forget about capitalizing on his career after retirement as well. My point was that everyone involved has responsibility for their actions, from the rulemakers, to the managers (the Canucks), all the way down to the players. Managers are responsible for their employees. The team and the league should put an end to this incident and everyone should move forward and learn from it.

No one really knows for sure except Crawford and Bertuzzi, and even then the truth depends on the source of the information. Wasn't there a full blown investigation of the incident at the time? Wasn't the rest of the coaching staff and players questioned? They have tape of the game and can see who was physically close to the situation. Hockey benches are pretty close confines. Somebody has to know what really went down. I don't want to derail the direction of the thread, but once again, no matter how much of jerk anyone wants to make Bertuzzi out to be: 1. There is no way he purposely broke Moore's neck. 2. He did intend on injuring Moore to an extent and did jump him from behind. 3. Moore played hockey for most of his life. He knows the stakes. He cheapshotted Naslund. He had to have known that eventually someone would be coming for him. He does have a level of personal responsibility in this situation. He could have squared off with Bertuzzi (who isn't exactly the second coming of Probert), taken his beating, and would probably still be playing hockey today - but he chose not to do so. 4. Yes, this is a litigous society. Moore spent four years at Harvard. He isn't stupid. Fighting in court is a lot easier than fighting on the ice. These guys are both responsible for their actions and have both suffered because of the incident. The NHL and the Canucks, who are both ultimately responsible for the players on the ice, should pay Moore a nice settlement and everyone should move on.

Great photos for sure! Pavel's haircut is awesome when compared with the one sported by Mike Bolt (I think that's Bolt), the Cup Keeper in the second to last pic. I think he last updated that hairstyle around 1979 - 1980. BTW, I hear that Lurch was one hell of a defenseman back in the day.

I agree. He does everything that's expect of a player with his skill set and typically ups his game in the playoffs. Ken, Mike, and Co. obviously see something in the guy, especially considering his salary.

njf520 - I respect your opinion, but I gotta disagree. While I won't say he is absolute best color guy out there, I think Mick is actually pretty even with his praise and criticism for both teams no matter who is on the ice. I have had Center Ice for the past few years and have been lucky enough hear a lot of different p-b-p and color tandems for teams other than the Wings. For me, it's the bad ones who stick out more than the good ones. The best out there in my opinion are the Dallas, Edmonton, and Detriot broadcast teams. Ken and Mick get a slight edge over the others partly because of homerism. They just have great chemistry and knowledge, and the focus is on the game a lot more often than not. Nothing pisses me off more when there is a penalty and a: the guys calling the game don't acknowledge it because they have better things to discuss than the FREAKIN' GAME; b: the broacast doesn't show the ref calling it; or c: they don't replay it, especially if the infraction happened off camera. That usually doesn't happen with an FSN Detroit broadcast. The worst? Hands down, far and away, Weber and Crisp. I know Crisp knows hockey: he coached Calgary to their only Cup, didn't he? Is his style affected so the locals in Nashville can attempt to understand what he is talking about? Absolute homers as well. Just plain awful. Off topic: Rink announcers really need to stop screaming when the home team is "ON...A...POWER PLAAAAAAYYY!!".

QFT. I would love to see Nash in the Winged Wheel. Hopefully Mule will be able to consistently fill the need for that type of player (size, hands, etc).