Packer487

I vote B+. Loved, loved, LOVED the Ian White signing, especially for that price. I love that he brought back Eaves. Commodore is fine for what we paid. Conklin was a nice pickup and I like that he cut the cord with Osgood, just because he was a really high injury risk at this point in his career. It was time for Drapes to pack it in as well. On the downside, he overpaid Ericsson, though probably not by a ton with regard to what other players were going for. And I think Drew Miller is a dime-a-dozen player. I don't see the need to pay more than the league minimum for a guy like that. Still, that's a minor issue. I like that we still have flexibility under the cap. I'm curious to see what, if anything, he does (or if he banks it for the new CBA or when the FA crop next year comes around). I feel like the team is probably slightly worse than they were last year, but I also think that's a team that could've won the Cup if they stayed relatively-healthy in the playoffs. White might not replace Rafalski, but for the money he did about as well as he could've.

That's true about his numbers. And actually that was the very first thing I said in my post. He was clutch in 08. I'll never forget his play during that playoffs. He was fantastic. That year. He's not a top-20 goalie of all-time. This was exactly the point I was trying to make about him being severely overrated and underrated at the same time. The guy was never voted the best goalie in the league for one season. The Wings dropped him in a hot second when Hasek became available (even at age 36) and he had like 3 great seasons in the decade after that. He was a good goalie overall, there were a few season he was great, there were a few seasons he was terrible. I'm not leaving him out just because he was on a good team or because he played with Hall of Famers. I specifically made a point of saying that argument is kind of lame and that it doesn't give him nearly enough credit he deserves (this would be the "underrated" part of the argument). He was clearly a big part of the wins that the Wings piled up over the years. But it's also true that it's highly unlikely that he'd be top 10 in wins if he had played 70% of his career with the Islanders. The team does play a role in it, and it's why I look at more than just wins and losses. I leave him out because in my opinion there were only a 2-3 seasons where I'd have put him in the top 15-20% (that's 5-6) starting goalies in the league. If I was going to throw his seasons into buckets for great (96, 04, 08), good (95, 97, 98, 00, 02), average (94, 99, 07), below average (01,09 only because of how good the playoffs were,11), and horrid (03, 06, 10), it's actually fairly even. 8 season good or great 3 seasons fairly average 6 seasons below average or awful Those are fairly unscientific rankings, but it's still more subpar seasons than I'd want out of a Hall of Fame goalie and fairly in line with my opinion. Good goalie overall, had some great seasons, but had an awful lot of seasons where he wasn't that great. There's no shame in being a really good player for a long time in the NHL and not making the HHOF. I wouldn't put him there largely for qualitative reasons more than quantitative. If it was rare that I'd put him with the greats of a season, I can't put him with the greats of all-time....

Hasek had six shutouts in that postseason and put up a brick wall in back-to-back games when we were facing elimination against our arch-rival and their legendary goalie. There's honestly no way to know for sure. The 02 team was the best of our recent Cup teams, but the 02 Avs were probably the best team we faced during any of those four playoff runs, no? I don't think we win that Cup without Hasek. If you put 08 Osgood on that team, we win it. If you put 02 Osgood on that team, I really don't think we do. There's a reason they dumped Osgood and gave up a pretty darn good player and a high draft pick to go get Hasek. He delivered.

The numbers say absolutely, but I vote no. Full disclosure: Never liked the guy in his first stint with the Wings. He won me over to a point with his play in the 08 playoffs--he was fantastic. I respect the way that he stuck with it and ultimately had a triumphant return in Detroit. It's pretty impressive to have the two best seasons of your career more than a decade apart. Quite honestly, had Detroit won Game 7 against the Pens in 09, there's no argument against putting him in. Maybe that's unfair to hang so much on one game, but three Cups as a starter and top 10 in wins has to get you in, regardless of how good the team you played on was. I'd put him in if for no other reason than keeping Cindy's name off the Cup. But there are a couple of reasons I vote no, and they don't have anything to do with the lame "It was just the team" argument. 1) I just can't see putting a guy in the HHOF who had 2 or 3 years tops where he could be considered a top-5 goalie in the league. 95-96 and 07-08. It's pretty remarkable that he did it more than a decade apart, but that's really it. I'm sure people could make a case for another season or two, and that's fine, but I feel the HHOF should be for the elite. He got to that level for a couple of seasons, but certainly didn't sustain it for any amount of time. 2) Moreso, though, I just keep coming back to this. If you consider him a HHOFer, then the story goes like this: The Red Wings had a 28 year old future Hall of Famer. When a 36(ish)-year-old future Hall of Famer in Dominik Hasek came on the market the Wings couldn't jump on him fast enough. So then they had a 28-year-old future HOFer that was available. Surely teams would fall over themselves lining up and Detroit would get a nice return? Didn't happen. We got nothing in return. What happened after that? (And I'm trying to be as balanced as possible with these evaluations) 01-02: Good season for the Islanders 02-03: Save % below .900. Bad. 03-04: Really good season for the Blues. 05-06: Save % below .900 for the Wings. Bad. 06-07: Meh. Pretty good numbers, but didn't play much. 07-08: Fantastic season. I'd probably argue that it was the best year of his career. 08-09: Career worst in GAA. Career low in Save %. Great run in the playoffs. 09-10: Below .500, a 3+ GAA, sub 89 save percentage. Didn't play a ton, but ugh. 10-11: Barely played, nothing special. So you've got three really good seasons over the last decade of his career, a couple with a lack of games played, and 2-3 that were somewhere between subpar and awful. I don't think anyone would've argued back in 01 that he was on his way to the HHOF and when you look at it, he really didn't help the resume all that much once he left. The Cup was huge, but he didn't have himself a great decade there... He was a good goalie, but I think the HHOF should be for the best of the best. There's what? 30 players in there who primarily played goalie? The win total puts him there, but I just don't think you can make a case for him as one of the 30 best netminders to ever play. I'd say about 1990 is when I can really start to remember watching hockey, which means right now there are 3 goalies that I've seen play in the HHOF. Roy, Fuhr, Belfour. We know Hasek and Brodeur are locks. I can't put Osgood up there with those guys. Those were the guys you feared going up against. I don't think Osgood ever got to that point, even though he had some great years and finished off a couple of them with Cup wins. But the one Vezina nomination, and the 3 All-Star games (two that he played in) are kind of glaring. Also, maybe it doesn't mean much, but the lack of any international play doesn't help. Really good at times, but not elite. Is it possible for someone to simultaneously be one of the most overrated and underrated/underappreciated players in history? I do think that there are groups of Wings fans that drastically overrate him. At the same time, I think there's a much larger group of people who simply write off his successes to the team in front of him, which is a mistake, especially after seeing what he did in 08. It just seems like there's a pretty high standard for goalies. I don't consider him a HHOFer, but that doesn't diminish what he accomplished in his career one bit. Wow, that post got really long in a hurry. It's been awhile!

Story line worth mentioning: Unless they can get it together and win the next two, Game 4 could very well be the last game ever at The Joe.

I have an idea. Let's ***** about a 3 goals against and argue in favor of putting in a guy who hasn't given up fewer than three in a full game in almost five months. Brilliant!

Those two games against the Vikings and the debacle today have to be enough to broom Thompson and McCarthy right? There are too many good coaches out there this offseason to let those knuckleheads hang around any longer. Favre won the battles, and this team isn't showing that they have the potential to win the war. This team is going absolutely nowhere and Aaron Rodgers got outplayed by a rookie making his first career start (and the rookie showed a helluva lot more field awareness in the process). The whole front office/coaching staff needs to go. This is terrible.

Certainly doesn't look like a guy who's gonna hang it up after this season either, as long as he continues to stay relatively healthy. You can tell he's having fun with Harvin and Rice (and of course AD and that line). Amazing what happens when a GM actually tries to improve his team, huh? I bet Aaron Rodgers would be much happier and healthier if TT had, ya know, signed an offensive lineman instead of sitting on upwards of $20 million in cap space. Not that that's the only problem on that team by any stretch of the imagination. Pretty clear it's time for a change in GB. 4-3, with wins against probably the three worst teams in the NFL. And they took it square in the face in two of the biggest regular season games in the history of the franchise. You just can't lose that game. Not after everything that has gone on. You can't let your former QB come in and roll you for four touchdowns. Where's the pride? Thompson doesn't have a clue how to build a team and McChucklebutt doesn't have a clue how to coach em up. It's time for a change, and it has almost NOTHING to do with Brett Favre. But the fact that they let him go for 500+, 7 TDs, and couldn't sack him says an awful lot about the team they've put together. It's a joke. Hopefully that debacle will be enough to turn up the heat a little.

Well I think it's pretty clear who's getting the last laugh. Holy crap..... 16 TDs, 3 picks, and with Minnesota and New Orleans looking like the class of the NFC, almost no chance he'll have to play an outdoor playoff game. How much more of this nonsense do we have to go through before TT and MM are out on their butts and we can bring in someone who actually wants to build a winner, not just be the youngest team every year. A coach who won't tolerate dip-**** penalties like Jolly's would be nice too. But I'm sure "it'll be addressed". Just like pad level.

The funny thing is that the Vikings offensive line is NOT that good in pass protection. Before last night, Favre had been sacked almost as many times as Rodgers and he had gotten hit a bunch of times on top of that. There were people legitimately concerned that the line was going to get him killed during the 49ers game. Mark Roman absolutely destroyed him on one play. The Packers just have no pass rush whatsoever. They had one good rush end and they made him a LB and don't let him rush the passer anymore. TT needs to be gone. 5 years into this and the Packers are in shambles on both lines. The offensive line completely blows and the defensive line can't rush the passer at all--though they did a helluva job against Peterson last night. If you're going to build through the draft, you can't bust as many picks as Thompson has (Bustin Harrell, Brohm, Pat Lee, Brandon Jackson, AJ Hawk--yes he's a bust). Look at the Vikings. They've drafted pretty well but they've supplemented their team with some quality free agents. They needed an offensive lineman and they ponied up and got the best guard in the league. Needed a pass rusher? Paid a premium for one of the best ones in the league. Needed a QB? Courted one until he agreed to come. And it's paying huge dividends. The Packers are sitting on 30 million in cap space with no pass rush, no offensive line, one NFL-caliber running back, very, very average LBs for the amount of money they're paying them, no depth at safety, and no heir apparent to their aging corners. And in the last three years, the only free agent of note that they've signed who is still on the roster is Brandon freaking Chillar. You're not going to build a winner being the youngest team in the league every season. Thompson doesn't have a clue and McCarthy is worse. What the hell was that challenge on Rodgers's fumble in the first quarter? He was standing upright! They would've been better off challenging that it wasn't a fumble on the grounds that he scored a touchdown first, then ran back to midfield and got stripped. Same chance of winning it. Maybe we can hear some more about pad level. Another 6-10 season would be a small price to pay to see those jokers out on their asses. This is getting embarrassing. 20 sacks in 4 games?!

:ranting: It hurts to watch that guy doing those things in that jersey. But purple is a helluva lot better than retirement. I hope Ted is happy.

Yup, like picking up the flag when Mathews was carrying the ND defender on his back, throwing a PI flag on Warren when the ball landed FIVE YARDS out of bounds, etc. The long TD was correctly called back and the ND student video confirms it. The call at the end was a bad call (though there is a still shot that shows that perhaps Michigan's player did have possession first), but nothing else against ND in that game was egregious by any means. Certainly not on the level of Jackson scoring a TD when he was a yard short, Henne's TD getting called back when he was clearly in, etc. As for roughing the snapper, it is a rule. I don't know enough about the intricacies of it to know if that was a good call or not, but they call it in the pros. It doesn't happen that often because usually the ref tells a guy to move before they snap if they line up over the center, but it does get called.

Do you think Charlie Weis will "not talk about the officiating" this week and keep bringing up the fact that the ND player's knee was down a yard short of the goalline on the 2 point conversion and that there was no angle that should have definitively overturned the Washington TD? Still, that goalline stand ND had was ridiculously impressive.

I can't even imagine what the ratings are going to be for this game.... It's going to be weird.

And that is why I don't care what team he's playing for, I'm happy Brett Favre is still in the NFL. God do I wish he was still in Green and Gold. Purple is better than permanent retirement though..... That was magical. Once he's gone for good, there's never gonna be another one like him, so I'm happy to watch and cheer for as long as he's willing to play.

I told one of my buddies that Forcier must s*** moxie. He's a special quarterback. I just had this dumb grin on my face after some of those plays like "Really? He's ours? For four years?" We're back, baby. Played the first game without our #1 RB (who was a stud today, by the way). Played today without our #1 WR. Notre Dame just might be the best offense we'll face all season. With the way a lot of the teams in the Big Ten have looked, this season could turn into something pretty unexpected and special. Too early to get cocky, but at least watching Michigan football is enjoyable again. I got more enjoyment out of the WMU game than I think I had all of last season (except for maybe the Wisconsin game, but even that wasn't a good game, just a great rally). Then today's game was just epic....great football game, and a great outcome! I didn't catch too much of the CMU/FYS game, but that was the best onside kick I've ever seen. I can't imagine a better one. I have to believe that if you asked every coach in America to diagram the perfect onside kick, that's what they would want. Unbelievable.

That really is beautiful that Shrub missed the Chase. I've never wanted Harvick to stay behind someone before, but I was yelling at the TV for him to drop back when he was trying to pass Vickers in the closing laps. Go Gordon, Montoya, and Martin!!

Effing Bowyer.

Yeah I have a signed Holmstrom one that I've put through the wash (cold water, no drying) for a good decade. It's starting to fade now so I'm retiring it, but I don't even think he used a laundry pen on it. I've got plenty of autographed t-shirts that I got signed with a laundry pen and they still look great. It will eventually fade, but I don't think I'd be super worried if you're just washing it once in awhile. (Or just doing a one-time wash to clean it up and then retiring it)

Note that I didn't mention them in the teams that looked like crap I only watched that game until it was 14-0 and it became evident that OSU was going to have their hands full with Navy, so I don't have too many thoughts. I thought after a rough first series that Cousins looked pretty good. Didn't think FYS's running game looked good at all, but I don't know if it improved--or if they even bothered trying to run since it was obvious Montana State didn't have a pass defense. FYS will be solid this year if it turns out that they do have a running game.

As good as Forcier was, and as impressive as Robinson's speed is, the thing that blew my mind was how solid the tackling was. I honestly can't think of a single missed tackle the entire game. They had a couple blown coverages, but that was as sound tackling as I've ever seen out of a Michigan program. It was also kind of interesting that by and large, the Big Ten looked like crap today. OSU damn near lost to Navy, Wisconsin almost blew it against NIU, Minnesota needed OT to beat Syracuse, Iowa needed to block 2 FGs in 7 seconds to beat Northern Iowa, Illinois got it in the butt....I'm not offering up a prediction or anything, but I think this is going to be a really fun season. There will be some losses, but it's not going to be a disaster like last year. Real QBs! Woot!

Other possibility: After the playoffs, they wanted to get Datsyuk's confidence back up.

I guess Tim Cheveldae was unavailable. Or maybe they want him to be the backup so there will be a full season without a single goalie war on LGW!

You're certainly entitled to your opinion--and it's one that I respect more than 99% of the people on this board--but I really don't understand this viewpoint. The way Thompson handled the situation last year caused you to lose all respect for him, how do you think Favre felt? We're fans, we're emotional, but at the end of the day we're just fans. Favre was actually affected by what took place last offseason, with the train leaving the station and all. If it was enough to make you lose all respect for the man, I'm sure Favre felt the same way. It's just he's in a position to do something about it. That's fair, but what other options were there? Like I said, I don't deny that part of this is sticking it to Thompson, but in the end it's about winning another Super Bowl is it not? The best revenge is success. If he wins a Super Bowl, Thompson looks like much more of a fool than if Favre comes back, beats GB twice, and doesn't go anywhere in the playoffs. So I don't really buy that he had to go to a team in the division. He picked a team that gives him the best chance to win another title--the best team that needed a quarterback badly. I still firmly believe that he wanted the Vikings because they were by far the best team out there that needed a quarterback. It helps--for sure--that they're in the NFC North as well, but if all he wanted was a chance to play the Packers and beat them, why didn't he push more for Tampa last year? It seems that Favre actually preferred the Jets over the Bucs and the Bucs were on GB's schedule last year. I know this has something to do with Thompson. But I don't think he picked the Vikings specifically because they're a rival of the Packers. More because they're actually a really strong team. If all he wanted was a rival, we would've heard more about the Bears or (haha) the Lions too. Neither of those teams were ever mentioned and they both clearly needed QBs as well. It was always the Vikings. Why? Adrian Peterson, familiar offense, one of his best friends, dome...they've got a lot to offer a QB looking to go out on top. Why? Because they parted on more friendly terms? He's still a Packer Hall of Famer who had free reign to go wherever he wanted and he picked the Bears. Maybe he's not a legend like Favre, but he's pretty far up the list to be in the PHOF. Sharper: Future Packer HOFer immediately signed with the Vikings. Ditto Longwell. Majik played for the division rival Lions. Heck, Aaron Kampman was a free agent, signed with the Vikings and the Packers matched the offer. (There were plenty of Packer fans at the time who were not only not upset, but would have gladly taken the 4th rounder in compensation, good luck getting them to admit that now.) I wonder if he's good enough yet that doing something similar would make him Benedict Arnold..... I personally just don't see the problem. The guy wanted to continue his career and the Packers decided it wasn't going to be in Green Bay. They used their leverage to place him in a situation that worked well for them--and they guaranteed that he couldn't end up with the teams they didn't want him to end up with by putting a poison pill in the contact. A year later, Favre had the leverage because the Jets had no cap space, and he used it to put himself on the team that's the best fit in the entire league for a guy like him. Is he supposed to retire or go to a lesser team just because the Vikings are a rival? I'm sorry, I don't see it as spitting in the face of Packer fans. They're clearly the best fit and it's not even close. He's doing what's best for him. The Packers did what they felt was the best for them. It's business and it blows my mind the number of people in this state who seem genuinely offended that Favre is playing in Minnesota. If you don't like it, blame Ted Thompson and the guy who had to make the trains run on time, McCarthy. They made the decision to cut Brett Favre loose. How can you blame the man for wanting to put himself into the best situation possible?

What other team could offer him one iota of what Minnesota could right now: -They run an offense that he's run his entire career. -They have the best running back in the NFL. -They have a very good offensive line. -They have a solid defense. -He's good friends with their head coach and offensive coordinator. -One of his best friends is on the team (Longwell). -They're only scheduled for one "cold weather" game this season. -He gets to play 9-10 games inside a dome where he's been lights out the latter part of his career. -And, oh yeah, he gets to play the Packers twice. I'm sorry, people think it's all about revenge, but there was never any indication that he wanted to play for the Bears or Lions. He could've gone to Tampa Bay last year and been in the same conference as the Packers, but he didn't seem to have much interest in going there. The Vikings are a bonafide Super Bowl contender who was lacking a quarterback. Where else could he go, start, and have a pretty decent chance to win the Super Bowl? There's no where else. NFM: He's not pissing on every Packers fan that used to support him blindly. He's continuing to play football on a team that's a perfect fit. What? The Packers are perfectly fine to move on without him--and that's NOT pissing on their fans--but he's not allowed to continue his career with the best fit for him because that team just HAPPENS to be a team that Packer fans don't like? C'mon. The Packers made their decision. Mike McSsolini made sure the trains were still running on time. They wanted Rodgers. Maybe it'll prove to be the best decision for them. It's stupid the team is apparently allowed to dump him and it's just business, but Favre wants to keep playing and suddenly he's the Anti-Christ. Even if it is 100% about revenge--which it isn't, though I think more of that is there than he's letting on--so what? It's human nature to want to prove your doubters wrong. Anyone who has ever wanted an ex-girlfriend to see them with someone hotter, anyone who has ever wanted to outshine the person that beat them out for a promotion, etc. has felt that way. It's just rare that the opportunity comes around to actually satisfy these urges. The Packers let him go. Just remember that. For the record, how do you feel about Edgar Bennett, NFM?