egroen

You are throwing out red herrings at this point. The point is, perfectly fine backups put up perfectly average numbers for backups. If Buffalo had played such great "team defense" and allowed mainly perimeter shots, this would not be the case, and their numbers would look very good as a result. Most view the fact Hasek played for such a lousy team as Buffalo as making his numbers even more impressive... and you want to argue playing for a bad team somehow inflated his numbers. Many of the all-time greats suffered the intant they were off their dynasty teams -- Sawchuk and Plante are two great examples. Not the case with Hasek, and he proved he could win the Cup with a good team in front of him in 2002. Hasek's numbers are out of this world. In fact, from 1993-94 until 2001-02, Dominik Hasek faced 1,060 more shots than Martin Brodeur, and gave up 135 fewer goals. Brodeur is definitely someone who benefited from a "team defense" ie. The Trap... he was facing arguably a lot of perimeter shots. But of course his numbers were not nearly as good as Hasek's. I know it makes some people uncomfortable, perhaps because he is not the most likeable guy at times, and they try and "explain it away" as a result... but that Buffalo team really sucked at everything but goaltending. Hasek was really that good, the best that has ever played. I see the same thing with Jagr, as his accomplishments get "explained away" and I think it is mostly because of the fact he is a jerk.

OMG! GREATEST GM EVAH!!!!

He did not originate it of course, but he certainly helped make it more popular. We do have him to thank for goalies stuffing themselves with padding until they look like the Michelin man.

That is a common excuse to try and lessen Hasek's truly unique accomplishments in Buffalo. Buffalo did not play a "team defense" like Anaheim '03 (IE. The Trap), they were a forechecking team, and quite horrible at it. They gave up more shots than any team in the NHL. It is well documented they gave up a lot of odd man rushes; a lot of 2 on 1 and 3 on 1. If that was even remotely true, Hasek's backups would be putting up great save percentages as well, especially since they were playing easier teams most of the time. Hasek's backups were 79-95-21, with a 2.96 GAA and a .900 save percentage -- Big difference. And he had talented backups (Grant Fuhr, Martin Biron, Dwayne Roloson, Steve Shields, Manny Legace).

For what it's worth: Here is what I have (that are post 1950): 1) Hasek 2) Roy These guys both were able to take mediocore to bad teams the distance, something few of the other goalies were able to do. Hasek's prime is just so much over and above Roy's thayt he is number one pretty easily in my book. 3) Plante 4) Sawchuk Both had amazing primes, but their numbers really suffered outside of their dynasty teams... Sawchuk the most noticeably, despite the better prime. 5) Tretiak Arguably the greatest Soviet player ever - along with Kharlamov and Fetisov. 5 time Soviet player of the year during a time when the top soviets were amongst the best in the world. 6) Hall Not exactly a "clutch" goalie, but great, great numbers... especially in the regular season. Great numbers for years, but never had near the prime of the others above. 7) Brodeur 8) Dryden Dryden with the higher peak, but he arguably played for the greatest team of all time... his backup put up similar numbers during the time. So I give the edge to Brodeur, who has definitely benefited from the trap-happy Devils, but he has the years to place him above Dryden, IMO. Decent sized gap between Top 6 and 7th... another one between top 8 and the rest.

A look at Norris voting throughout the careers of defensemen. Lidstrom does very, very well... as does Chelios. Red Kelly is another Red Wing who would be way up there, if half his career was not played when there was not a Norris Trophy. Mark Howe needs to be in the HHoF. http://www.geocities.com/thehockeyoutsider/Norris_shares.pdf

My mistake -- The Vezina back then was like the Jennings trophy of today, until '81. Better to go by All-Star votes from the time. Sawchuk had a peak that rivals Hasek, but loses value because he dropped pretty hard after the Detroit Dynasty period... of about 5 years.

I dunno -- I feel safe in stating Gordie Howe was a better player than Robert Lang. Ranking players is fun and interesting. It is not "impossible" because it is done on a regular basis all over the place. Comparing the top tier players from different generations is possible by looking at their accomplishments vs. their peers, as well as the fact there is a lot of overlap. Dcinroc from hfboards.com responded well to this a while ago: You are right about Hasek though, he was jaw-droppingly good at that time... though I think his '98 season was better than '99. That Buffalo team was terrible.

Tretiak should definitely be in the discussion, like Hasek he obviously excelled in international play -- a 5 time Soviet Player of the Year. No one else has ever won more than 3.

Lemieux was the leading scorer but had clearly lost a step (from 161 the previous year). For Buffalo, LaFontaine was out the entire season and Hasek caried them single-handidly into the playoffs. Top scorers in 97 were Audette, Holzinger and Plante with 53, 51 and 50 points and 4 other guys with over 40 points, a total of 12 with over 30 points. That is so horribly bad. Regarding Brodeur in '98 - not even close. Hasek faced almost 600 more shots on goal than Brodeur and still came away with a 93.2 Save %. GAA and Wins are a team stat as much as a goalie stat. '98 Hasek had one of the greatest seasons of al time, for anyone -- he had six shutouts in a single month (13 on the season), won the Olympic gold during the break, took home the Hart trophy on .932% save percentage that had even Gretzky saying he had never seen more dominant play by a hockey player. "One on one against him the shooter is at a disadvantage" Cechmanek was closer in '01 but Hasek still won both the Vezina and 1st All Star selection.

Can we agree the top Soviets and Czechoslovakians were at least "competitive" with the NHL? Point being, Hasek's accomlishments before the NHL should not be ignored, as he was playing in one of the best leagues in existence at the time and the best that was available to him. Beating out Jagr was something few people in the world could do at the time.

I think like Chelios, Wings' fans often forget just how dominant Hasek was before coming to Detroit. You are right - in Hart voting it helps, but not so much for the Vezina. Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Datsyuk are at a disadvantage in Hart voting because all 3 of them could arguably be "the most valuable" at a given time. Hasek's Harts and Pearsons were completely deserved though... you will not find many arguments otherwise.

Roy, Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Dryden -- all benefited from playing on dynasty or near-dynasty teams. The years Hasek won the Hart, he was not simply the best player on a crappy team, he was easily the best player in the NHL, putting up the best seasons of any goaltender in history... and just happened to be on a crappy team; which makes it all the more impressive. There is not a single trophy of Hasek's that you could argue for someone else -- though you might argue Hasek deserved more -- would anyone blink if he had won the Conn Smythe in '99 or in '02? True for the Olympics at the time, not true for the World Championships. Beginning in 1977 Canada was fielding pros. And they had Roy! Hasek allowed six goals in total, with only two of them coming in the medal round. Against Canada in the semifinals, Hasek stopped Theoren Fleury, Ray Bourque, Joe Nieuwendyk, Eric Lindros, and Brendan Shanahan for the shootout win. He then shut Russia out for the gold and was player of the Olympics.

Huh? That is completely untrue. At the World Championships, Canada had not won since '61 (the US since '60) -- and that is what the NHL consisted of. Internationally, the Soviets completely dominated during this time, with Czechoslovakia winning the years they did not.

I just wanted to compare apples to apples. In Czechoslovakia Hasek was beating out some great hockey players, including Jagr, for player of the year -- but that post ignores this as well. The two played much of their prime at the same time, it makes for a great opportunity for a comparison, and Hasek was cleary better. A lot better. Hasek played longer than Roy, and was easily in the running for the Vezina as late as '04 until he went down with an injury. Career-wise, in the NHL, Roy played more.... but if you include international play Hasek played a much longer career... and his international accolades easily trump Roy, as well.

This is a post taken from hfboards.com from Wings4Life... and really takes a look at Hasek and Roy: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The case for Dominik Hasek over Patrick Roy: Hasek and Roy were both born in 1969. Hasek is actually 9 months older than Roy. Despite this, Roy got his start much sooner in the NHL, and had already won the Vezina ('89), Conn Smythe ('86), and Stanley Cup ('86) before Hasek was even in the league. Hasek played his first 5 NHL games in the 90/91 season, and then saw limited games as a backup for the next two seasons. In 93/94, Hasek earned the starting job for the Buffalo Sabres. Patrick Roy turned 28 the day the season began, and still had his best hockey in front of him. Since that day, Dominik Hasek has undoubtedly proven himself to be the better goaltender, and not just by a little bit. Here are their stats during the time period both were NHL starting goaltenders: Regular Season Patrick Roy Season SO GAA SV% 1993–94 7 2.50 .918 1994–95 1 2.97 .906 1995–96 1 2.95 .907 1995–96 1 2.68 .909 1996–97 7 2.32 .923 1997–98 4 2.39 .916 1998–99 5 2.29 .917 1999–00 2 2.28 .914 2000–01 4 2.21 .913 2001–02 9 1.94 .925 2002–03 5 2.18 .920 Dominik Hasek: Season SO GAA SV% 1993-1994 7 1.95 .930 1994-1995 5 2.11 .930 1995-1996 2 2.83 .920 1996-1997 5 2.27 .930 1997-1998 13 2.09 .932 1998-1999 9 1.87 .937 1999-2000 3 2.21 .919 2000-2001 11 2.11 .921 2001-2002 5 2.17 .915 2002-2003 DNP--Retirement Playoffs Patrick Roy: Season SO GAA SV% 1993-94 0 2.56 .930 1995-96 3 2.10 .921 1996-97 3 2.21 .932 1997-98 0 2.51 .906 1998-99 1 2.66 .920 1999-00 3 1.79 .928 2000-01 4 1.70 .934 2001-02 3 2.51 .909 2002-03 1 2.27 .910 Dominik Hasek: Season SO GAA SV% 1993-1994 2 1.61 .950 1994-1995 0 3.49 .863 1996-1997 0 1.96 .926 1997-1998 1 2.03 .938 1998-1999 2 1.77 .939 1999-2000 0 2.39 .918 2000-2001 1 2.09 .916 2001-2002 6 1.86 .920 2002-2003 DNP--Retirement Hasek was without a doubt the better goaltender as the numbers clearly show. In terms of regular seasons, Roy was only better in 2001-2002, and not by much. Hasek was the superior goaltender in 8 of the 9 regular seasons in which both goalies were starters. Hasek also had the worse team in front of him for the majority of these years. In terms of playoffs: Hasek was clearly better in '94 In '95 Roy did not play whereas Hasek crapped the bed. In '96 Hasek did not play whereas Roy played very well (winning the Cup). In '97 Hasek was slightly better, though the sample size is very small. In '98 and '99 Hasek was clearly better. In '00 and '01 Roy was clearly better. In '02 Hasek was clearly better. That's 5 seasons out of 7 where both played, in favour of Hasek. Taking their total averages over this time period, Hasek has the better GAA, SV%, and SO/GP ratio. So Hasek was undoubtedly the better goaltender when both played simultaneously in the NHL. The counterargument to this is that Roy already had a HOF career at 25 years of age, when Hasek had just made his NHL debut. So we have to look at their careers as a whole: Hasek's trump Roy's handily, for both playoffs and regular season (career season stats: Hasek: GP 694 SO 76 SV% .923 GAA 2.20 vs. Roy: GP 1029 SO 66 SV% unavailable GAA 2.54). Funnily enough, Hasek actually has more shutouts (76 vs 66) in far less career GP (694 vs 1029). Again though, the counterargument would be that Roy's early career was in the high scoring late-80's era. So we look at how each goaltender faired in competition with their peers, over their respective careers (ie their hardware): Roy: 3 x Vezina 0 x Hart 0 x Pearson 3 x Conn Smythe 5 x Jennings (3 shared with Brian Hayward) Also, 4 Stanley Cups. Hasek 6 x Vezina 2 x Hart 2 x Pearson 0 x Conn Smythe 2 x Jennings (0 shared) Also, 1 Stanley Cup. Roy's 3 Conn Smythes do not match up to Hasek's double Hart/Pearson sweep, imo. They are simply a reflection of Roy having a team capable enough of winning the Cup, and Roy having a chance to shine in the SCF...chances which Hasek rarely (once) had in Buffalo. The Vezina trophy, meanwhile, by definition goes to the best goaltender. Once Dominik Hasek became a starter, he won six of these whereas Roy would never win another. That, along with his superior playoff stats (career, peak, and contemporary) is more than enough to rank Hasek over Patrick Roy. As a final bonus, there is the head-to-head factor: Hasek outplayed Roy in Nagano (1998), as well as in the 2002 Western Conference Final, over 7 games. These were both the types of huge, historical, "clutch" moments which Roy was famous for excelling in, yet Hasek was the better player here.

I was shocked as well -- Hasek should be #1. He literally is the best goaltender of all time, with only Plante, Sawchuk, Roy and Hall on the same tier with him. Hasek was the Gretzky of the late 90s and single-handidly got a horrible Buffalo to the Stanly Cup Finals. And I mean horrible. Their top scorer at the time had like 60 pts. If Hasek had entered the NHL at the same time as Roy (he is actually older than Roy) this would not even be up for debate. Once Hasek became a starter in the NHL, Roy never won a single Vezina again (much like Sawchuk never won again once Hall and Plante entered the league). Though Hasek could not come over right away to the NHL he was 5 times named Czechoslovakian Goalie of the Year (`86, `87, `88, `89,`90), 3 times named Czechoslovakian Player of the Year (`87, `89, `90) and 2 times named best goalie at the World Championships. And Czechoslovakia was no slouch at hockey during this time. He also leads all goalies in Hart voting... by a very large margin.

I take it Montreal has given up on Sundin...

Gotcha... and then 2nd - 5th place votes also carry a value, which accounts for how points in a given year will add up to much more than 1.0

1.0 is how much the Norris trophy wins.

It's the value -- Lilja is unbelievably cheap compared to other players of his ability (and is signed to it for two years)... that alone should make him worth more than a 4th round pick. Boyle was almost a salary dump and had a hefty price tag attached. I agree Eva --> Lilja alone makes the most sense. Out of all the options, Lilja + Samuelsson is probably the 2nd most likely option as I could see Holland being uncomfortable with so little of a cap cushion. I hope Samy stays (this year).

With Holland's comments about having to shave $300-400k from the roster, I think he is literally trying to keep it under wraps that it is already pre-determined Lilja is gone. I wonder what Lilja's value is -- he has a great contract, hits, blocks shots, fights and can be a 1st option PK guy as well as a fill-in on even the 1st line with regular 2nd, 3rd line duties. I hope he fetches a 2nd round pick. The only other possible way to do it is if he trades Samuelsson or Hudler along with one of Meech/Quincey/Lebda -- which strikes me as less than wise.

Lebda seemed more consistent and mature on defense... but IMO, Meech shows more potential, and is more effective jumping into the offense, despite Lebda's speed.

I am getting set to... but will do my best to give him at least a full season to prove he is worth that. Lilja is gone, there is no question about it. I would much rather prefer to see one of Lebda or Meech leave as they are so similar, but the Chelios and Filppula signings have given Hollan no other option than to trade Lilja. The question will just be if he trades anyone else... like Samuelsson, if someone like Helm, Abdelkader or Leino really shines in camp and they want them on the regular roster.

I am going to miss Lilja, if only for GMR's posts about him...