egroen

Hey, I agree! That's why the Conn Smythe is more "rewarding", for all it encompasses -- most likey you won the Cup as well. But no one is going to look back at history and say "Hmmm... Cam Ward has a Conn Smythe. He must be better than Hasek." The Conn Smythe alone is just not nearly as "prestigious".

Lidstrom is considered one of the best defensemen ever mainly because of his Norrises... not because of his one Conn Smythe. Neidermayer has a Conn Smythe as well.

You don't even have to try very hard to list example upon example... Franzen could easily have won the Conn Smythe this year if he had not missed almost an entire round.

As I stated earlier, the Conn Smythe is more rewarding, but the Hart is more prestigious... it's all semantics Looking back over hockey history, great players are judged more by Harts than by Conn Smythes. That is a fact.

I had a feeling there would be a "split" for the Wings' players -- just happy one of them won it, without them going 2,3. Unfortunate that Zetterberg did end up being bumped by it though.

Were you watching the Wings then, though? Yzerman alone did not bring the team out of the muck... in fact, there was a lot of talk of him being traded, but Demers got axed instead. Fedorov, Sheppard, Coffey, Lidstrom and the Russians were all big pieces of that puzzle. It was ten years before the Wings were even a legitimate contender.

If you take a moment to look at the history of the Lady Byng.... it is pretty incredible. Dating back to 1925, the second oldest trophy with some of the greatest names to ever play the game on it. It is really a shame so many look down on it.

Roy's Conn Smythe's are incredibly impressive. Easily ensures he is a top 4 goalie of all time. However, Hasek is actually older than Roy and dominated Roy in almost every area once he became a starter.... he could not come over to the NHL being from the Eastern Block. Roy did not win a single Vezina once Hasek became a starter. I strongly feel Hasek is the best modern day goalie, and IMO the best goalie ever. Brodeur has carried a bad New Jersey to the playoffs, but Hasek carried an abysmal Buffalo team to the Stanley Cup Finals. Anyways, on-topic -- I think a lot of Hart or Pearson winners would give those up for a Conn Smythe. So it is definitely the most rewarding trophy. But it is awfully dependant on having a good team, so it may not be the most prestigious award... because you are not exactly competing against the entirety of the NHL, individually, for it... as you would for some of the other awards.

If the Wings do not sign Stuart - they could go after someone like Rolston. I still wouldn't mind Fedorov in that case. If they do sign Stuart, you need to look for someone who will sign for only ONE YEAR. I would love to see that happen, but Sundin is about the only guy I can think of, of the available impact players, who would even consider a one-year contract.

There is no question in my mind that Gretzky had the talent and means to play great defense. He just never did. The same goes for Yzerman during his offensive peak. Guys like Sakic and Fedorov actually played great defense at the same time as their offensive peak.

Concerning Yzerman as "third best" of his generation... If Gretzky and Lemieux ceased to exist he would have one Hart and one scoring title. You would also have to get rid of Messier, Jagr, Lindros, Fedorov, Forsberg and Sakic for Yzerman to see any more... all of these guys were considered "best in the world" at one point or another -- Yzerman never was. Everything you have listed just confirms that he was an amazing player, on both ends of the ice. I have him as a top 35 player of ALL TIME, which is incredible. But I think Lidstrom is a top 20 player, all time... few would contest he is not at or better than the "top 5" mark for defensemen ever. The same can not be said about Yzerman for centers, and especially for forwards. Every argument I see for placing him higher involves a lot of wiggling, "what-ifs" and statements like "He was an amazing leader; Had great heart; Played through injuries; etc..." That should be taken into account, but it also applies to a lot, if not most, of the greatest hockey players ever. I'm not sure if there was ever a player who played his entire career without serious injury and with consistently great linemates.

However, Sakic was 2nd for the Art Ross scoring title in '01; 2nd for the Selke; and won the Hart and Pearson that year; with 54 goals and 118 pts -- in the DEAD PUCK ERA There are a lot of reasons many have Sakic ahead of Yzerman... though I personally have him just behind.

In '89 when Yzerman placed 12th for the Selke, he had 8 votes which tied him with three other players. Carbonneau won that year with 222 votes -- so it is safe to say there was a significant drop-off between first and 12th. There is not a single year where he received any votes at all between his rookie year and '94 when he was voted 3rd. Looking at Yzerman's points over his career, it is very obvious when he started actually playing defense. Gretzky beat Yzerman 3 times in Selke voting during Yzerman's "offensive" years... I just do not think you can assume Yzerman was playing "elite" defense during those seasons. Messier was also consistently beating him for Selke votes. Hart voting it also a bit troublesome for Yzerman, if you want to automatically consider him the "3rd best of his era": Top Ten Votes for Hart '87 - 7th '88 - 4th '89 - 3rd '90 - 7th '92 - 7th '93 - 8th '00 - 8th That is only two top 5 finishes. That is consistently really, really good, but it is quite a tier below the others I have mentioned. There are very few hockey players that would not have an asterick next to their stats stating: *Injury -- Who knows how good he would be without it. Lemieux and Orr may well have been better hockey players than Gretzky, and who knows how much more they would have accomplished without their serious injuries... but they didn't, and Gretzky did. Hence, Gretzky should always appear higher than them on all-time lists. I still salivate thinking all that Konstantinov could have accomplished. But I could never put him higher than Stevens on all-time list, despite my firm belief Vladdie was a better player.

... and gets a third-round pick! Ok, I hope Holland seriously looks at Lebda's trade value.

Who does he go back to on the West Coast though? Anaheim certainly can't afford him, same as San Jose. LA sounded like sucksville all-around from his own interviews... though they could certainly afford him. I am not going to be suprised either way...

I would rather throw a one-year $5-6 million deal at Sundin than sit on it all year and possibly waste it on a rental at the deadline and lose draft picks and prospects along with it. I'm not sure who else out there would accept a one year deal... which is all the Wings can really offer at this point.

IMO a lot of teams will be targeting defensemen, and this is a particularly good year for them. I would love to see them get a forward or goalie in the first round... maybe even move up a bit by trading a Lebda/Meech. Ultimately I am content with whatever they do. Just out of curiousity -- anyone still screaming we did not pick up Latendresse with either of our first two picks (Kindl and Abdelkader)? Despite Latendresse playing in the NHL, I still think Kindl and Abdelkader show more promise, and fit into the Wings system better.

That would be quite a coup if Holland kept Stuart for under $3.5 million. Obvoiusly this is some posturing through the press... but I have thought Stuart at $4 million or anything below is still a good deal. Be interesting to see what happens. Holland just needs to point at Markov to show he does not bluff.

You could be right, but I am not so quick to dismiss Kopecky... wasn't he leading the team in hits for a stretch? And there were certainly moments when he turned it on physically, especially against physical teams like the Ducks. I just am not ready to give up on him yet, and would still give him the nod over Abdelkader after only seeing him in the NHL for a couple games.

If Lemieux and Gretzky ceased to exist, there is only one year Yzerman would have won the Art Ross... a lot of people do not realize this. Yes, it is unfortunate we never saw Yzerman in his prime with better linemates, and I think it is fair to factor that into the equation... however... Taking all other forwards out of the equation, and only looking at centers (which I do not think is very fair to defensemen, who can be just as vital as a forward), I'm not sure how you have Yzerman as a top 5 center of all time. Sure, if you are just looking at points, but that ignores about 60 years of hockey that fall outside of the high-scoring era Yzerman was fortunate enough to play his prime in. I have a hard time putting him in the top ten: 1) Gretzky 2) Lemieux 3) Beliveau 4) Morenz 5) Mikita 6) Esposito These were all guys who were considered the best of their generation at center. Yzerman was not. 7) Clarke 8) Messier 9) Trottier 10) Lalonde I have Yzerman at around this group, along with: Schmidt, Sakic, Apps and Taylor.

I believed Zetterberg and Datsyuk were just as good, if not better than Crosby & Malkin this year because of their overall play. But there is not a huge point disparity between them offensively, as there is between Yzerman's best and Lemieux & Gretzky's best. I'm not so sure they are better than Ovechkin this year, for instance. But it is a very subjective line to draw, I'll grant.... but I would gladly sacrifice defensive play for Gretzky... that 60 points extra in a season is like having another player out there on the ice. Plus, Zetterberg and Datsyuk are going to be at least #2 and #3 for the Selke this year. 12th place in voting does not seem near as impressive, and definitely does not make up for the scoring of other seasons I had listed above. I do agree with you though, you can not just "teach" Selke level defense, and Yzerman had that skill and potential to begin with... and it showed. Bowman just forced him to play it more often... and Yzerman has stated numerous times in interviews that he resisted at first, and that his production did decrease as a result.

I would say Lemieux scoring more points in 20 less games, WITH CANCER (missing two months for radiation treatments), is slightly more impressive than Yzerman's 12th place voting for the Selke... might also be a noteworthy difference there, IMO

Larry Aurie is "formerly retired" by the Red Wings.

Re: Best season ever: If that was the single greatest season by a forward ever, where do you put Fedorov's 1994 season? Hart - Winner Pearson - Winner Selke - Winner 56 goals 120 points Sakic scored 118 pts in '01 winning the Hart. Pearson and was runner-up for the Selke... during the dead-puck era. Was Yzerman's 12th in Selke voting really worth the extra 60 points Gretzky gave you in 86? Esposito's 76 goal season in 1970-71? Hull's 65-66 with 54 goals which was a record (broke his own record) and 69% higher than the runner-up who had 32. Mario's 1993 cancer season. He had 69goals 91assists and 160points in 60 games. 1983-84 Edmonton Oilers NHL 74 87 118 205 -- Gretzky has 2.77 PPG compared to Lemieux's 2.67. How about Probert going 29/33/62 with 398 PIM's? I know you said forwards, but Orr's Norris/Ross/Hart/Smythe haul in '70 is probably the greatest of all time.

He'd have to play extremely well in training camp and beat out a lot of players to get on the Wings... I am sure there was no "guarantee" in place for him to leave college. He is just getting into the minors earlier in the hopes of making the NHL earlier. Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom Franzen - Fillpula - Samuelsson Maltby - Draper - Cleary Hudler - Kopecky - ______ Now you have: Helm, Leino and Abdelkader (maybe even Drake) all duking it out for that last slot w/ McCarty and/or Downey as a reserve (mucker/enforcer).