egroen

These arguments do not arise... except on a Red Wings message Board.

Great point. As to the OP, the biggest star gets the largest billing in the NHL and the NBA. Crosby and Kobe are the biggest stars.

You are way off with this statement: Ever heard of the Broad Street Bullies? Fans from back then ***** constantly about how sissified hockey has become.

I would add Hasek and Kelly. Though Hasek's best years were obviously not in Detroit.

I agree on Kelly, but it is debateable -- Kelly was putting up 50 pts as a defenseman when 25 was considered excellent. He also played a very similar style defensively to Lidstrom... cerebral, not physical. Adding Kelly's center years bumps him above Lidstrom for a lot of people (though not IMO). I think Lidstrom is better than Potvin, but a *LOT* of people would disagree. Potvin definitely had a better peak than Lidstrom... and he was mean as hell. Harvey is still ahead of Lidstrom and Potvin, IMO. 7 Norrises. Shore was the best player of his era, and one of the most complete players ever. He was putting up points before defensemen put up points, and his toughness is legendary. Few all-time hockey player lists would not have Shore and Harvey in the top ten.

Orr, Shore, Harvey and Bourque are all ahead of Lidstrom right now. Many have Potvin and even Kelly ahead of him... and some will still argue for Robinson, Fetisov, Park and even Chelios over Lidstrom. It's all subjective, of course, but the biggest knocks against Lidstrom are: Lack of competition -- Chelios and Bourque were right there w/ Lidstrom when they were 40, how many Norrisses would Lidstrom have against these guys if they were in their prime? 3-4? Lack of physical play -- you can say Lidstrom doesn't need it, but it is an element of defense that can not be completely discounted. I have a really hard time seeing Yzerman in the top 15, all time, as well. I think you are ignoring, or discounting a lot of years of hockey.

Lidstrom is such a no-brainer. Osgood is not even close yet... he needs at least one more Cup as a starter (and then it is still debateable), but he could really sweeten the deal with a Vezina or a Conn Smythe.

A real great comparison for Yzerman, all time, is Sakic... Putting homerism aside, I flip-flop a lot on who is ranked higher, but they are always right next to each other.

I would be interested in someone trying to put any of those guys at the same level as: Bourque, Potvin, Robinson, Park, Chelios... even Coffey and MacInnis. Those are the guys you should be trying to compare Lidstrom to, not the ones you mentioned. Only Pronger has reached that level, but he has nowhere even close to the consistency. Phaneuf could... but he is still very young. Guys like Bourque and Chelios were giving Lidstrom a run for his money for the Norris when they were *40*. You also forgot Zubov... he is definitely up there from this generation.

I have heard convincing arguments that Orr was better than Gretzky and Lemiuex... but never one that Lidstrom was better than Orr. Coffey scored like Orr, but his defense *did* suffer because of it... he was like an extra center. That is not the case with Orr (or Bourque). Well, I go back pretty far. Not sure how many of you would include Howie Morenz or "Newsy" LaLonde, but I do. I also include Kharlamanov.

... and Messier, Jagr & Sakic --> plus guys like Forsberg, Lindros, Fedorov, Hull, Bure, Selanne were all peaking during Yzerman's years. Yzerman has had a lot more competition than Lidstrom. It would be interesting how many Norrises Lidstrom would have if he was playing in the 80s-90s when there were a lot more elite defenders around.

I have Lidstrom as a top 20 all-time and Yzerman as a top 35 all-time. Lidstrom is a generational talent.

Ultimately, I think you have to get rid of one individual each from the following pairs: Lilja & Quincey This just seems like a no brainer to me. Quincey is ten years younger, cheaper and has more of a nasty edge to him than Lilja, despite giving up a little size. Both are stay-at-home guys that will hit, block shots and play on the PK. Lebda & Meech Again, similar players. Meech can actualy play forward, so is more versatile, but both have shown they are great at bringing the puck up with speed. Lebda played well in the playoffs, from a less than spectacular regular season. When we saw Meech during the season, I thought he played better than Lebda and showed more potential, but Lebda's play in the playoffs has me second-guessing that. A much tougher decision. Lebda has more value right now if we were to trade him.

Let's assume Holland is able to sign Stuart -- Now you choose between Lilja and Chelios: Lilja wants a raise (currently making $1 million), was made an offer during the season and held out -- probably wants to test free agency. Chelios would probably come back for close to the league minimum. I'll also assume Holland signs Chelios. Assuming Ericsson stays in the AHL for one more year, subject to call ups. And finally assuming Lebda is not traded, you have: Meech -- Similar game to Lebda: fast, puck moving smallish defender. Can also play forward. Showed a lot of promise throughout sporadic play during season. Much improved over previous call ups to the NHL. Quincey -- Slightly smaller Lilja. Fights. Showed to be a consistent stay-at-home defender last year during the playoffs. One of these guys will be lost to waivers, or needs to be traded (what value would they have?). Ok, that's a lot of assumptions... but here is what I would do: Sign Stuart and Chelios. Let Lilja walk. Lebda's trade value is probably about as high as it ever will be - I would look into trading him for a draft pick, or even in an attempt to move up in the first round this year. Keep both Quincey and Meech. Give Ericsson one more year to develop, calling him up as needed. Thoughts?

Chelios and Quincey. In the playoffs last year, Quincey had decent ice time, and I did not notice any glaring mistakes like Lilja -- plus he is ten years younger than Lilja, so you have some room for improvement. I think we have seen as good as Lilja is going to get. Plus, Quincey will be a lot cheaper. He was also up this year when our defense was decimated and was playing as much as 18 minutes a game... again, for the most part he was not noticeable -- just about everything you could hope for from a stay-at-home defenseman. Losing Quincey for Lilja would seem like a mistake to me. Sure, it is a little more risky, but the reward is higher as well. ... and Quincey fights.

Only Ericsson is waiver-exempt -- which I thinks forces them to keep him in GR next year. Quincey would have to clear waivers (which is why Meech was the 7th defenseman on the Red Wings this past year).

I just hope Holland is able to gain something for one of them... It certainly seems like they have value, and as deep as Detroit's D is, these guys should easily make the bottom pairing on most teams in the NHL. But Detroit has a history of losing these borderline players for nothing, through the waiver, as other GMs seem reluctant to give an inch for Holland.

We were having similar thoughts at the same time (would love to see our two topics merged): Anyways -- If Stuart is signed (seems to be a priority for Holland), Lilja is definitely expendable. We know Lilja was offered a contract earlier in the year and chose to hold out. He was making $1 million... does he want $1.5 million? Chelios, Meech and Quincey can all be had individually for almost 1/3 of that.

I agree... it will be interesting which direction Shero goes. He could go in the direction stated above... letting Hossa and Malone go, possibly retaining Orpik and signing more for the blue line. -Or- He could sign Hossa, and possibly even Malone... let Orpik go and make further sacrifices on D to ensure Malkin, Hossa and Crosby can all be retained (that's approximately $25 million for three forwards). I personally hope they move mountains to keep Hossa. This would ensure approximately half their team is AHL calibre players for years to come.

Best goalie ever, IMO, and easily best modern-day goalie. He is actually older than Roy, and Roy never won a single Vezina once Hasek became a starter. Would have loved to see him able to enter the NHL at 20, but just happy we were able to see as much of him as we did. Thanks Dom!

I am almost positive you can not "buy out" a contract... that was only allowed immediately following the work stoppage. $2.5 million for Sydor is ugly for sure, though.

Nashville -- These Central teams are being bred to beat the Wings, and it is beginning to show. I am thankful we will play less within our division next year. Sort of how the Rangers were built to beat the Devils.

I have taken for granted he will be playing for the Wings... the guys I listed may or may not.

What cup contender could afford to sign Sundin then? Nashville? heh...

The parting of ways with Shanny was a mutually beneficial breakup. How about Schneider and Bertuzzi? Both offerend contracts from Detroit and jump ship to go to the Stanly Cup Champs - Result? They are out the first round; Detroit wins SCF. To Detroit: Hartigan To Anaheim: Schneider & Bertuzzi Winner: Detroit