egroen

The History of Hockey forum at Hfbords is updating the top 100.... http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817 I personally find this to be the most informative, un-biased and accurate listing of hockey greats. The list is compiled from 36 voters. Already we see some familiar Red Wings at the top of the list: #3 Gordie Howe #12 Dominik Hasek #16 Red Kelly #17 Nicklas Lidstrom Elgible Red Wings for the next vote are Terry Sawchuk, Ted Lindsay and Steve Yzerman. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=671498

He's just talking about the 'History of Hockey' forum --- you're right the general forums can be a nightmare.

Agreed! It's rare to have transparency into what goes into the voting for these lists. Original lists and then actual voting records each round are also published, to further discourage agendas. I think I know a fair amount about hockey history, but did not apply to vote because I am comparably woefully uneducated in many areas of hockey history and would probably overvalue Red Wings players. Some of these guys are pro scouts, journalists, analysts and have been watching hockey since the 50s. Compared to every other list I have seen - this is the best on many levels.

I largely agree -- and have compiled some quotes from Yzerman's early years that back this up -- he was taught sound defensive hockey in juniors. Over the years Yzerman has taken on this martyr persona as someone who completely sacrificed his offense in order to become a better team player and a defensive stalwart upon Bowman coming to town. While true to a degree, I believe it is a bit romanticized. "I think he was always a complete player it's just that the circumstances have changed," says Carolina coach Paul Maurice. "Steve Yzerman's emergence as a total player has been seen by the media as a change in his game but I think it's more a case of moving forward. The Detroit Red Wings got to the point where they don't have to rely on him for his offense every night. He's always been a complete player but the team was not as good over the years and had to rely on him every night to provide offense. The Detroit Red Wings have the supporting cast and while Steve Yzerman is a great offensive player, he is also a great defensive player." "I wouldn't say he's a different player," Mike Keenan said. "I see a player who's always been an excellent player and a threat. I see a player playing on a better team than he had in the past." Larionov commented on Yzerman's defensive play in the 1985 World Championships: Yzerman was always capable of playing defensive hockey, said Igor Larionov, a 37-year-old center from Russia. Larionov recalled playing for the Soviet Union in the world championships of 1985, when Yzerman took a role on Team Canada's checking line. In the medal round, against the famous KLM line, Yzerman held Larionov off the score sheet as Canada won, 3-1.

I'm not disagreeing - though with Holland's record "pretty well" is actually disappointing.

I'd say Jagr - most awards and 2nd to only Thornton in points 794 Thornton 737 Jagr 717 Iginla

I'd be happy to go into more detail, but just do not want to have to re-type everything I did the first time this exact same topic was brought up: http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=60337 There is very little evidence to include Brodeur in the dicussion of "greatest goalie of all-time", but I would be curious to hear evidence to the contrary.

The sun... IT BURNS!!!

Brodeur is overrated because many consider him the best goaltender ever. Most Red Wings fans would not even call Osgood a top 10 goalie of all-time, based upon his wins.

Outside of the top 5, inside of the top 10... not in the ballpark for "best ever".

A good case can be made that Yzerman is much more than what his individual awards show, but you have to make a case for him being above the others he is in there with.... Mike Bossy - 9 50+ goal seasons (5 60+ seasons); 8 times in the top 6 for points; Conn Smythe Bobby Clarke - 2 Harts; 7 times top 10 in scoring and would have numerous Selke awards Viacheslav Fetisov - the russian Bobby Orr Glenn Hall - equivelent of 7 Vezinas Jaromir Jagr - 5 Art Rosses; Hart Valeri Kharlamov - russian Gretzky (though more like LaFleur) Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde - Pre-NHL legend; also led the newly formed NHL Ted Lindsay - 9 times top 6 in goals; 6 times top 4 in points Mark Messier - 2 Harts; incredible playoff performances; excellent post-season all-star selections, despite competing against Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman Larry Robinson - 2 Norrises; Conn Smythe; career +/- leader Joe Sakic - 10 seasons top 10 in points; Hart; Conn Smythe; excellent playoff numbers Terry Sawchuk - Peak comparable to Hasek; equivelent of 3 Vezinas; incredible playoffs Fred "Cyclone" Taylor - Another pre-NHL legend Bryan Trottier - One of the greatest all-around players ever; Conn Smythe, Hart and Art Ross

I actually did a comparison of Lidstrom and Bourque (and Potvin) offensively, adjusted for era to 6 GPG. My point was that Lidstrom was not so far of Bourque offensively, though I would still have a hard time putting him ahead (Bourque's longevity and sheer amount of years at the top of the league is unbelievable):

Some very good points -- though just about any forward would do a heck of a lot better in Team All-Star voting if you made them into a left-winger (weakest overall position historically in the NHL). Non-voters are welcome to post in the voting threads, and it would be nice to see Yzerman get some more love. The 1st place vote for Selke in 1989 is a bit dubious at best (not a single other vote) - though I am of the opinion Yzerman is largely underrated defensively pre-Bowman. He used to be double-shifted on a checking line against other teams' top lines and was a regular on the penalty kill even in the 80s. Here is a pretty exhaustive Yzerman - Sakic comparison: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=583598

I agree - Richard's 50 in 50, while an incredible feat, was also done in a year the NHL was probably at its most watered-down ever (1945 -- WW2).

But did you watch Bourque in the 80s and 90s? He was only a hair below Lidstrom defensively... and 13 1st Team All-Stars selections (6 2nd Team All-Star selections), against the best competition for defense the league has ever seen (Chelios, Coffey, Stevens, Potvin, Robinson, Langway, Salming, Murphy, Howe, MacInnis, Leetch, Lidstrom -- just about all Hall-of-Famers) -- is a feat bested by only Gordie Howe. Bourque was great defensively. This list actually rates international players better than any I have seen.

He moved up a ton from the last list -- which I was quite happy to see. A list based on true talent and not actual accomplishments would be interesting, but almost entirely subjective.

Largely based on Hart voting from the time. Richard fell a few places from the previous list. Up for voting right now (21-30).

The general boards are a sea of chaos, and don't post in another teams' forum if you don't plan on getting warned/banned but the history of hockey forum is tip-top.

Mickey Redmond claims Zetterberg had his wrist guarded and was at 70%. Have not seen anything outside of Redmond on that.

I'd like to think I helped that -- though I did not register to vote.

Because the NHL and the professional sport of hockey has been around for a while... believe it or not. If you find it "ridiculous" to rank similarly two players who respectively dominated their peers by similar margin, but from different eras (Howe vs. Lemieux, for example), then obviously these lists are not for you. If you are interested in understanding why the players are ranked as they are, dig into the voting round discussions... I find they are backed up with tons of informative analysis.

That's just the thing -- Yzerman has not dominated, and certainly not in the way of the players in the top 20. Points -- Top 10 finishes in the league 1988-89 NHL 155 (3) 1989-90 NHL 127 (3) 1990-91 NHL 108 (7) 1991-92 NHL 103 (7) 1992-93 NHL 137 (4) 1999-00 NHL 79 (10) Only 6 seasons in the top 10, and only 1 after he became a top Selke contender. He is dwarfed by the players in the top 20. Removing Gretzky and Lemieux bumps him up a few places, but we are still talking about a single season where he wins the Art Ross (1989), eliminating those two. That is not "domination". Now is the time to register and state your case, as I have a feeling Yzerman will not make it into the top 30.

The Penguins lost just three man-games to injuries in 24 games. (Gonchar: 2; Sykora: 1) The Red Wings lost about 70 man-games to injuries.

Sergei Gonchar missed a few games from a knee-on-knee collission with Ovechkin Sykora missed a couple games for an injury in the playoffs and then a few more for sucking Crosby was injured in Game 7 of the Finals

Rafalski also separated his shoulder in the series against Chicago Cleary had two pulled groins Lilja was out with a concussion (and this was a difference maker) Holmstrom had his usual list of ridiculous injuries he was playing through The charlie horse was in Datsyuk's thigh and had to be actually be drained of fluid - the bruised foot was a ruse Ericsson required emergency surgery to remove his appendix