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That was awesome... Anyways, it absolutely annoys me there are so many Wings who back down after the whistle (though star players can back down as much as they want as far as I am concerned)... but the Wings are not "soft" during play, which to me, is integral. Franzen may be a cream puff after whistles, but during play he drives to the net, will steamroll over someone and hits with regularity.... so I can live with him only standing up to Patrick Kane after a whistle. Heck, if he was a fighter, the wings probably couldn't even afford him.

Zach Parise -- better than Kane anyways.

I would have prefered one scorer and one grinder -- is Eaves our grinder? Would have been nice to have someone with more size. Ah well -- Holland had a tough job this off-season, no question, and he fell well short of his traditional excellence in my opinion.

Williams has scored 58 points as a Red Wing Filppula scored 40 points last year Cleary has been as high as 42 points Leino will have his rookie season after leading the Finnish elite league and 46 points in the AHL Eaves scored 32 points his rookie year with the Senators Filppula and Cleary have great chances for more ice time - with Filppula centering the second line and Cleary substituting for Holmstrom on the 1st line on occassion. Williams has scored the most, but might find himself in Babcock's doghouse on a consistent basis. Leino and Eaves are tough to guage at this point.

Brodeur is a very good, first ballot Hall of Fame goalie without question -- when I say "overrated" I am talking about someone whom many lump in with the greatest goalies ever, which he is not. Just like we all know Chris Osgood is not a Top 10 goaltender of all-time, despite being in the top 10 in wins.

It will be really sad or really awesome if it is Leino -- meaning the other guys are very disappointing or Leino has a monster rookie season. Zetterberg scored 44 points his rookie year.

I actually voted Williams -- simply because he has done it before and it is pretty rare for players to pile on 20 points on top of their best in one season. It will be interesting to see how all these guys do, including Franzen, who is another player I would like to see get more consistent in the regular season - 40 goals should be doable for that guy.

I see Lemieux is still making him wear a helmet outside of the house

Brodeur will be a top 10 goaltender while Lidstrom will be a top 5 defenseman. Both are still playing and can improve their standing, but in many minds Lidstrom has only recently passed Dennis Potvin and Red Kelly (some still have him behind them), with Bourque, Shore and Harvey in the next tier still a ways off and Bobby Orr untouchable. Brodeur has a long ways to go if he wants to be considered in the same tier as Hasek, Plante and Roy - which will be hard to do at 37, especially after he has finally started to show signs of wear and tear. Sawchuk and Hall would be next, and Brodeur could possibly get in there but it's doubtful (Hall had the equivelent of 7 Vezinas and Sawchuk's peak is up there with Hasek's). International goalies like Tretiak and Holocek are hard to rate, but many swear they are the best ever. Brodeur is a very good goalie on a very good team - sort of like Osgood X2 who may get into the Hall of Fame himself by being a good goalie on a great team. While you can argue goalies like Belfour and Joseph are "better" goalies and would have had more success than Brodeur on a team like the Devils - they ultimately did not, and you have to rate Brodeur ahead of them "all-time". He is in there right now with Dryden who had even more success on a much better team, but with a shorter career as well as Parent, Benedict, Brimsek, Durnam, Broda and Esposito with arguments going back and forth over career vs. peak.

You're right, many, especially amongst those who started watching hockey in the 2000s will just assume Brodeur is the best of all-time. Just like many assume Crosby and Ovechkin already are as well. Hasek's just a scrub who fell apart in the playoffs against Nashville, Chelios is a nothing and boring Lidstrom is a ***** who was just pawned by Chara and Green. I am not on a crusade... I did not post a comment at that website, and I can certainly accept many are going to think otherwise. I am posting at a Red Wings forum about it, where I thought others might be interested in it. While you are out to prove I am a retard for backing up my opinions, maybe others are interested in actually "Why is Lidstrom better than Brodeur?" instead of merely spouting off an opinion with nothing to back it up. In addition to watching both of them play and forming the opinion Lidstrom is better, the stats, facts and awards happen to agree with my opinion, as well as hockey analysts and historians. I enjoy reading and learning about hockey history and made an assumption others could be of likemind. I simply like talking about hockey and its history. Thankfully you are around to slap some sense into me.

I'm sorry. I guess I was operating under the assumption that a Hall of Fame player is pretty damn good... and that was who was typically beating Lidstrom. Brodeur was not beaten merely by Hasek, Roy and Belfour but by Theodore, Kiprusoff, Osgood, Carey, Joseph, Moog, Vanbiesbrook, Puppa, Hebert, Richter, Dafoe, Kolzig, Turek, Chechmanek, Burke and Nabakov. How many of them are Hall of Fame players? The point is that Brodeur was not winning Vezinas until Hasek was retired, Roy was in his final year and Belfour was 37. It's true that a 27 year-old Brodeur played more games and had more wins on the Devils that year, so I'm not going to argue he did not deserve his Vezina but in the games they did play - Belfour and Roy were still posting better save percentages than Brodeur. Two players, plus Hall of Famer Belfour -- and then the competition for Brodeur was a bunch of goalies who will never even sniff the Hall of Fame. And Brodeur was not even capable of beating them on a year-to-year basis while Lidstrom was consistently beating Hall of Fame players. If Brodeur was beating everyone but Hasek and Roy, you might have a point - but he was losing to a LOT of other goalies, as listed above. When did I ever say Lidstrom does not belong in the Top 5? Do you just make this up as you go? I did say he is not in the discussion for greatest defenseman ever, just like Brodeur is not in the discussion for top 5 ever. I'd say it is just as easy to demonstrate that a 6-time Norris winner and Conn Smythe winner is better than a 3-time Vezina winner as it is to demonstrate a Selke and Conn Smythe winner is better than a Vezina winner. this is not rocket science. I am a moron for stating Lidstrom is better than Brodeur and backing it up with stats and facts? I am a moron for stating Brodeur is not a top 5 goalie all-time, and backing it up with stats and facts. But you're a genius for being unable to compare players of a different position and then trying to equate Lidstrom to Orr and Brodeur to Hasek, Plante, Roy, Tretiak, Sawchuk and Hall without backing it up with anything beyond your own opinion and insults? Sure. You're coming off real well here.

As I have already shown with Hasek - no he does not belong in that discussion. Why are you even in this thread spraying feces all over the place? Either prepare an argument that Brodeur is comparable to the likes of Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuk, Tretiak, Hall or get the f*** out. Put me on ignore if you can't stand my posts to such a degree that you can not resist reading and commenting on them. Please. Agreed... I noticed it started right at post # 23 in this thread. Either add to the discussion in a respectful manner or get the hell out of it. So Ron Francis is a better player than Mario Lemieux? More points. Osgood is better than Hasek? More wins. Once again you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Czechoslovakia was behind only the Soviet Union in the 80s.. So then debate it, or get out. Just don't barge in here screaming and yelling how anyone who thinks Lidstrom might be better than Broduer is a "******* homer/retard/idiot/whatever". Is it even possible for you to have respectable debate without throwing in every logical fallacy known to man?

Where did I ever state Brodeur was a "product of the system"? Where's the spin job? Hasek has more Harts, Vezinas and 1st Team All Stars than Brodeur, regardless of teams. If you want to tak about teams we can get into really comparing them. Hasek won the Hart by some of the highest margins of all time - 92% and 78% of the first-place votes. The last goalie to win a Hart was by less than 12% and you might have an argument Theodore was buoyed by the "good player on a bad team" argument -- not Hasek. Not if you watched him those years, he was flat-out dominant. There was no question who the best player in the world was those years, regardless of teams, and the voting obviously reflects that.

Orr is compared to Gretzky, Howe and Lemieux -- he is the greatest two-way player in the history of the NHL and many believe the greatest player ever. Now do you want to argue Lidstrom belongs in that discussion? And you get off calling me a "homer"??? Go to any non-Red Wings forum and ask that question... it's a joke that no one even takes seriously. No one in the history of the NHL had a greater peak than Bobby Orr, he was amongst the best in the league defensively and won 8 Norris trophies in a row, 3 Hart's as a Defenseman, 2 Conn Smythe's and was the only Defenseman ever to win the scoring title (which he did twice). In 1970 he scored 120 points while the next player, a forward of course, only scored 99 points. In one year, he won the Norris, Hart, Art Ross and Conn Smythe. You call me an idiot, retarded and stupid -- and you know jack-s*** about Bobby Orr? Come on. http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHo...st=ByName#photo

First, Lidstrom has dominated his peers by a lot more than Brodeur has dominated his, in the same era. That has a lot of bearing on the discussion. Let's look at when Brodeur started winning his Vezinas: His first Vezina was in 2003, with Hasek retired. Coincidence? Belfour was 37 playing for Toronto and actually had a better save percentage (.922 vs. .914) than Brodeur did on a Cup-winning New Jersey team. Roy, at 37 also had a better save percentage (.920) and would retire that year. From that point on he was playing against Turco, Kiprusoff, Luongo, Lundqvist, Nabokov, Vokoun -- not a one of whom has shown to be a Hall of Fame player. Lidstrom has consistently beaten Stevens, Leetch, MacInnis, Pronger and Neidermayer, all of whom are sure-fire Hall of Famers, as well as borderline Hall of Famers Blake, Gonchar, Zubov and Chara. Early in his career he was also beating all-time greats Bourque and Chelios. Who has had better competition? I think it is pretty obvious. Notice they were listed at the very bottom - and largely because you listed them in your in.itial post praising Brodeur. Most of Brodeur's records are largely team accomplishments Although those goalies did have incredible years, that they were just not capable of sustaining. Much like Langway, Wilson, Blake and Carlyle whom have all won the Norris in the past 20 years. Brodeur did not win his first Vezina until Hasek was retired and Roy and Belfour were 37. Sure - Brodeur was losing to stiff competition. 3 Hall of Famers. But Lidstrom has lost to, and won against Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Stevens, Leetch, MacInnis, Pronger, Neidermayer and Murphy. 8 locks for the Hall of Fame. It seems perfectly rational to me, especially when viewed in context. Level of competition leaves Lidstrom looking even better than he did without taking it into context. No and no. Wrong and wrong. Neither belongs in that discussion, or are you prepared to actually back your ridiculous opinion up instead of merely spouting off at the mouth. I suppose a simpleton would find it impossible to compare two different positions in the same sport in the same era. You probably could not even demonstrate Steve Yzerman is better than Olaf Kolzig without sending your brain into a tizzy -- different positions right? I enjoy ranking and comparing players, and unlike you, I am actually prepared to back up those opinions with stats and facts. I guess that is just lame, and it's much cooler to rant and rave about as well as ridicule someone who does enjoy it.

Hasek vs. Brodeur Before we begin, we need to acknowledge that Hasek was stuck behind the Iron Curtain for years before being able to come over to the NHL. In Czechoslovakia, which was second to only the Soviet Union in World Championship play, Hasek earned top goalie (5 times) and player (3 times) awards. At the age of 16 he was playing against men in Czechoslovakia’s top league, and was widely considered the best goalie in Europe for years before ever coming to the NHL. In Hasek’s first year as a starter in the NHL, 1994 at the age of 29, he won the Vezina. This also happens to be the year Brodeur became the starter in New Jersey. Hart Hasek: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3 Brodeur: 3, 3, 3 Hasek won his Harts with an astounding 92% and 78% of the first place votes, and was by far and away the best player in the world those years. This was not simply a case of a “good player on weak team†though those Buffalo teams pretty much sucked. Vezina Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 6, 7, 8 Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 8, 8 Considering Brodeur became a starter in the NHL at the age of 21, while Hasek did not until the age of 29, Brodeur has more “good†years. Hasek, however, has 2 more Vezinas in 5 less years as a starter and his peak was out-of-this-world better than Brodeur’s. All Star Team Selections Hasek: 6 1st Team and 1st Team All-Rookie Brodeur: 3 1st Team; 4 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie Another win for Hasek Save Percentage Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9 Brodeur: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 An unbelievable blowout in Hasek’s advantage, despite 5 less years. Hasek also retired (at the age of 42) with the highest Save Percentage for all goaltenders in the history of the NHL: .922 which Brodeur has beaten in only one season in his entire career. Goals Against Average Hasek: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6, 6, 7 Brodeur: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 10, 10, 10 Somewhat close, so we’ll eliminate the redundancies and get: Hasek: 1, 2, 4, 4, 6, 7 Brodeur: 3, 5, 5, 8, 10, 10, 10 Pretty decisively in Hasek’s favor. Hasek has also outplayed his backups by a much larger margin than Brodeur. Shutouts Hasek: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 6, 6 Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 Slight edge to Brodeur (3, 7, 8, 9, 10 vs. 4, 6, 6) whom has played 264 more NHL games than Hasek. Playoffs Brodeur has 3 Cups vs. Hasek’s one as a starter, however Hasek spent his prime on a Buffalo team that had no business being in the playoffs, let alone deep into the post-season. In 1998, for example, the Sabres were led offensively by Miroslav Satan with 46 points – yes, they were that bad. Hasek dragged that team on his back to the Conference Finals that year and to the Stanley Cup Finals the very next year, in two of the greatest post-season goaltending displays ever. The first year Hasek was on an actual Stanley Cup contender he won, defeating Patrick Roy in seven games in the process. Playoff Save Percentage and Goals Against Average: Hasek: .925 SV% 2.02 GAA (last playoff game at the age of 42) Brodeur: .920 SV% 1.98 GAA (last playoff game at the age of 36) Both goalies have won an Olympic Gold Medal, though Hasek’s win for Czechoslovakia against Roy’s Canada is much more impressive than Brodeur’s win for Canada over the USA and Mike Richter. Ultimately, in 264 less games, Hasek has let in 600 less goals than Brodeur, despite being on a much worse team for his prime.

Not at all impossible. Both are measured and awarded each and every year against their peers, how do they stack up? Lidstrom has been much more successful at his position than Brodeur has been at his position. I think it is a pretty easy comparison.

We'll start with Lidstrom and go into the goalies, since this started with a comparison to Lidstrom. Norris vs. Vezina (best at position) Lidstrom: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 6, 8 Brodeur: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 4, 5, 8, 8 Eliminating the redundancy for easy comparison and we get: Lidstrom: 1, 1, 6, 6, 6 Brodeur: 4, 4, 4, 5, 8 Clear advantage to Lidstrom Team All Star Selections Lidstrom: 9 1st Team Selections; 1 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie Brodeur: 3 1st Team; 4 2nd Team and 1st Team All-Rookie Clear advantage to Lidstrom Individual Stats (comparing most telling: Save Percentage vs. Points) Lidstrom: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5 vs. other defensemen Brodeur: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 Lidstrom blows Brodeur away in actual individual performance Playoffs With the Devils, Brodeur has won 3 Stanley Cups With the Red Wings, Lidstrom has won 4 Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe Both have an Olympic Gold Medal Another clear advantage to Lidstrom No argument can be made that Brodeur is a better player than Lidstrom

Congratulations. That is quite the list of accomplishments. Now does it make him the greatest goalie ever? Does it make him better than Nicklas Lidstrom? Does it make him even a top 5 goalie in the 100 year history of the NHL? Did you even bother to compare Brodeur's accomplishments to some of the other greats, as well Lidstrom's? Or do you just blow a gasket any time someone dares praise a Red Wing? Lidstrom does not deserve to be in the discussion for best defenseman ever. That distinction belongs to Orr and Orr alone. Are you utterly retarded to suggest otherwise? Or just plain ignorant? Lidstrom might not even be the greatest Red Wing defenseman ever (though I believe he is), but you don't have a ******* clue about that either do you? I'll be more than happy to get into this further, but I am going to bed. To be continued....

It should be an easy choice -- Lidstrom has 6 Norrises and a Conn Smythe while Brodeur has 4 Vezinas. 7 1st Team All-Star slections and a 2nd Team vs. 3 1st Team 2 2nd Team selections. Lidstrom has also led defensemen in scoring, while being a defensive d-man first, more than Brodeur has led goalies in any category short of wins and games played (both are iron men). In the most teling individual stat for goalies, save percentage, Brodeur has only finished 3rd and 8th this decade.... that's it.

Look how he did compared to his backups this past year (they always do about as well as he does): Brodeur: 19-9-3, 2.42, .916, 28.8 SA/60 Backups: 32-18-1, 2.40, .918, 29.3 SA/60 He's a very good goalie, but does not come close to approaching the top 5 ever, let alone the best.

A Cup-winning goalie, by default, has a 1/3 chance of winning the Conn Smythe. In Brodeur's three wins, he lost the Conn Smythe to Scott Stevens, Claude Lemieux and the losing goaltender. Ouch. Unbelievably overrated goalie... many believe him to be the best ever.

Not.Even.Close.

It's no secret Babcock loves having a right-handed shot for the right point on the power play. Jason Williams played there and Samuelsson played there, despite players available (but were left-handed shots). Look who the Red Wings have picked up: Jeremy Williams: Killer shot (not much else) - Right-handed shot Andy Delmore: Killer shot (not much else) - Right-handed shot Patrick Eaves: Well rounded and nice shot - Right-handed shot Jason Williams: Good shot, good at shootouts - Right-handed shot Do I sense a theme here? Possibly a bit of overkill?

Outside of Eaves and Newbury, these guys are as soft as butter also.