theman19

thanks for the intelligent posting as always swf! look guys carolina went all the way to the finals before they got back arguably there best player last year in eric cole (not saying cole is in Z's league, but he was vital to carolina in the regular season) he goes down they get recchi Z's down,.....i mean,...what if bert plays like 02 bert? I think we'll be okay

cujo comming back here would be one of the stranges things to ever happen in sports,...but it's sports that said,..i'd like giggy please

yeah, edmonton was fighting for there playoff lives last year and that didn't turn out so well for us.

okay i'm really truely finished arguing this with you as there's really no point, parting shot,... number 4 is worn by several people around the league, so is number 9 for better or worse how many people have 99 on there backs?

beer + typing=bad

ya the stats may or may not support that but from what they did to the game is what im looking at. when one revolutionized a postion (orr) and the other is referred to the hockey community as "mr. hockey", you cant argue there greatness along with sawchuk, and others. you are aware that wayne's nickname when he broke howe's record was "the greatest one right"? If you are, that totally throws out your entire argument. and if you wanna talk about revolutionizing a position lets talk about a bean pole of a player who didn't excell at any particular aspect of the game, but played the game better than anyone in history using one tool that gave him all those points, all those harts, those cups too...His brain, Gretzky wasn't the fastest, wasn't the best skater, hardest shot, damn sure wasn't the best defensively, he was just the smartest. Look i'm finished here, this argument is pointless, you're not goign to relent to reason, i'm not going to relent to lack of it. i've said what i needed too, have fun. never mind,...calling me a tool doesn't make you sound intellegent, it makes you sound like drunk a redneck. and as far as your "most valuable player in the NHL" argument 9 hart trophies, the most ever,8 of them in a row....now please go back to stupid land where you belong.

A, i'm not a tool, i'm just not a wayne gretzky hater like some of you seem to be. B, There stats can totally be compared regardless of what era they played in, it was 10 years difference, nothing like comparing cylone talyor (who averaged a hat trick a game not that you'd know that, since you know zero about hockey history) to gretzky. Orr a force on the ice, yes, orr changed the game, yes, orr was the greatest defencemen of all time, absoultly, Orr was not the greatest player of all time. C, the stats are the only argument i need, not because he's on top, but because he's on top by almost a thousand points,...DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MORON,....he's the greatest offensive player in the history of the national hockey league by more than 500 points. He has more assists than the number two guy has points,.....it's not illogical, what's illogical is how some of you idiotic people who probably never even saw the guy play in his prime take away from his ungodly abilities. D, there's always more than just stats, but at the end of the day, you can't totally ignore them either. If that was the case, i'd still take howe over both of them.

alexander Daigle broke mario's junior records how'd that work out of the senators when the drafted him?

Gah i'm sick of hearing how mario carried a team on his back,...are you kidding me? look at the roster for the 91 and 92 pens, it's an allstar team just like any other. Francis, recchi, coffey, denis f'n potvin? and to answer your question 93 kings, No they didn't win the cup, the ran into patrick roy as his absoulte zenith as a goalie, but he was that team that year. Scored the O.T. winner in game seven against the maple leafs FROM BEHIND THE MAPLE LEAF NET. where's macattack at? come tell this fool how Gretzky carried the kings past the leafs in 93'

total crap and orr could "only" muster up 2 cups with a very stellar Bruins team Gretzky is not only not overrated, He's in the record book 60 times, he owns almost every forward record in existance including most overtime game winning playoff goals, how is that a product of his team? He had 19, that means he did all throughout his career. What could wayne do that bobby orr didn't? oh i don't know,...get more assist than anyone else has points,....outscore his nearest competator by hundereds on the all time list, WIN 8 CONSECUTIVE HART TROPHIES Too many people believed the hype? what are you a bruins fan? use logic,..look at the stats you can't take that away from the man,...ever. that might be the dumbest thing i've read on these boards,....know who else had ridiculous goal scoring season in the 80s? steve yzerman,....tell some people on here that he did it because it was a watered down league and not because he was insanely talented. Go ahead, lets hear it. Mario? huge season in 88 too, productive of the times right? no good goalies back then in the 80's i mean,..what with grant fhur, andy moog, PATRICK ROY, billy smith, etc. etc. no good Defensemen either,..Ray borque, paul coffey, chelly in his prime, use your head, the 80's we're no more watered down than any other era in history, at least there wasn't a california seals team in 83 when gretz started to tear things up.

well yeah,..if you ask most Detroit Fans who go back that far they'll tell you Gordie Howe was the perfect hockey player (and in my mind if i had to pick one player to be on my team i'd be him) if you ask an Edmonton fan (not that they count) they'd tell you wayne was the greatest hockey brain to every play. If you go by opinion and what if's then obviously you'll get a varity of opinions if you go by numbers Gretzky comes out on top by leaps bounds and backflips and yes those norris' where conseutive but then so were gretzky's harts another point i'll make is orr was a physcial player but that's not what made him a force on the ice. He didn't put the fear of God into other teams by checking them, it was offensive ability to control a game that scared people. There we're other bigger meaner defencemen from that era who we're 10X nastier (larry robinson for one)

I don't buy that,...Howe never ever ever said Orr was better than Gretzky and the only time they played on an NHL level was in Gretzky rookie year, hardly a litmus test of Wayne's talent in fact Howe and Gretzky had a very good relationship Howe was Gretzky's idol and Howe approved of Gretzky breaking his records. I highly doubt that ever came out of Gordie's mouth and if i did i'd like to see it recorded that way.

You miss the point entirely, The selke is awarded to the best defensive forward, Gretzky didn't need to play defense he'd score two and assist on two more for every goal his opponents scored in opposition. The Hart is awarded to the best player in the league and for 8 CONSECUTIVE YEARS a north american sports record, the MVP of the league was wayne gretzky. That best than MJ, thats Better than any baseball player you can think of, better than dan marino, steve young, jerry rice or brett farve, simply put Gretzky is the greatest player to ever play his sport and always will be. His records are unbreakable,...sprout off all you want about how orr was a more complete hockey player, hell 90% of the leauge was a "more complete" hockey player when at a very young age a bean pole of a great one shattered one of phil espesitos records for most goals scored buy a player in a season. but truly the end all by all of it? in 1997 a panel of experts ranked the 100 greatest hockey players of all time 2# orr 1# gretzky

8 norris trophies! you don't say! that's amazing,....gretzky only has,.....oh wait,............8 CONSECUTIVE HART TROPHIES 80-87 that means mr. gretzky has more MVP awards than any other player in north american sports

so 5th rounder it is

okay i never saw bobby orr play, so i won't comment on his play but i saw gretzky play and for some odd reason it's become popular to downplay his effect on the sport. let me end my involvment with this debate like this 30 team nhl? not without wayne. Gretzky almost single handily opened the sport past it's boundaries in the north. Now you can say all day if you'd like, if that was a good or a bad thing, but i'll tell you this one of the chief reasons the NHL has become to big is because of the vacuum a player of the caliber of wayne left, that has yet to filled. water down talent or not, here are some stats that never ever will lie about who history records as number one http://proicehockey.about.com/od/waynegret...zky_records.htm just look at some of them, regular season domination, playoff domination, assists, overtime assists, most playoff goals MOST GAME WINNING PLAYOFF GOALS (that one gets overlooked quite a bit) no one can even come to close to how utterly dominate wayne gretzky was. Not orr Not richard Not even howe (although gordie would just kick his ass) he's called the great one for a reason

we have these alot in the hockey world and people can argue till there blue in the face. It's like what others have said, what if, what if,.....wayne is the most dominate player to ever play a sport period. He has more assist than anyone else has points,..that's insane to even think about. Bobby orr fighting or not, wayne is better for obvious reasons.

so has Kansas city, Colorado had one lost it, got it back, ditto for minnesota,...is it monumental to think that Winnipeg couldn't have one?

after the past few years i'll go on record as saying i'm scared to death of the first round

i know i'm totally jacking this thread but in context to hart talks, marty got his ass handed to him by the hurricanes, getting yanked after the 4th goal. That team has his number or something, he got yanked last year in the playoffs playing them too.

i think you can add at least two more cups to us if vladdy never got hurt.

as i've said several times, i think he's the dark horse this year for the playoffs

i met phil once at nhl breakout in columbus,....nice guy

completly and utterly unwarrented. If you're going to make fun of someone because they bring up a point about the degrading of our culturly values (pretty flipping obvious if you ask me) there is zero reason to do it in this way. Keep it intellgent or keep it shut.

just no,.....no more expansion for the love of Bob probert,...no more,...