joshy207

I think having a team in Vegas is a horrible idea. It wouldn't be long before we're all speculating on where they would move.

The Colts losing Manning was the major reason they were bad. They also knew being a bad team would give them the chance to draft Luck. I'm not saying they did blow games, but a good chunk of their fans certainly had no problem with the idea. You don't think players or coaches have never intentionally lost or done something else under the table? Nobody has ever shaved points, fixed games, etc? That has happened. It probably happens more often than we will ever know about. And I'm certain some front offices have urged coaches to not put forth the best product a time or two. That makes more sense. I feel a little differently... depending on the player, keeping him in the minors longer can hinder his progress. Some players need the challenge of the higher level to continue to develop their game. The trick is figuring out which players those are.

Being NHL-ready and peaking are not at all the same.

"Tanking" implies losing on purpose. Whether it's players underperforming, coaches using the wrong players or strategies, or management making moves to make the team worse, it's done with the intent of finishing lower in the standings and getting a higher draft pick. Draft lotteries were invented to reduce the chances of this strategy working. It was done more often in other sports, where high draft picks almost always become impact players right away. The Indianapolis Colts' "Suck for Luck" season is one of the most recent examples. The Red Wings did not tank to get Steve Yzerman, and there are two obvious reasons why: 1, the Wings had been terrible for almost two decades, making the playoffs twice in 17 years and only winning one series. They didn't lose on purpose in "82-'83, they just couldn't win. 2, the Wings were heavily targeting local product Pat LaFontaine with the #4 pick, but he went #3 to the Islanders. Yzerman was the consolation prize. Tanking has been around for much longer than salary caps. I think it's tougher to do today, between the cap and roster/player movement limitations. Also, I think your "ready age" numbers are considerably off. http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/3/13/5500522/nhl-scoring-stats-rates-age-analysis

Probert or no Probert, I don't know that Gretzky was going anywhere without McSorley. It's possible Detroit could have included Probert or Kocur in the return package.

So many of you are arguing Gretzky VS. Yzerman, which is interesting... but I think it would have been Gretzky AND Yzerman. I think the deal could have gotten done for Oates and Klima.

You read not only my post, but also my mind.. Thanks.

Yzerman wasn't "The Captain" in 1988, and Gretzky most likely would have been retired (or traded away) by 2002.

This was the summer after the "Goose Loonies" incident in Edmonton, which--according to a story about it I read a few months ago--crushed Demers. He felt betrayed by a handful of his players and had wanted to bench the guys who were out drinking past curfew, but didn't want to handicap the rest of the team. Looking back at that roster and putting together a similar or slightly-better package, here's what I can come up with: (Please note, I have no idea who was a free agent that summer!) To Detroit: -C Wayne Gretzky -D/W Marty McSorley -C Mike Krushelnyski Same package as offered to Los Angeles. To Edmonton: -C Adam Oates -F Petr Klima -1st round picks in '89, '91, '93 -$20M cash Comparable deal to LA's, but Detroit gives Edmonton some more experienced players in Oates and Klima. Oates really began to blossom in 1987-88, scoring 14-40--54 in 63 games. Of course, Oates didn't score goals like Carson did, but "Oates and Kurri" would probably have been just as good--if not better--than "Hull and Oates". Or at least it would have been a spicy breakfast! Klima, while very talented, was a discipline problem (and supposedly the reason the Wings passed on Jagr in 1990) and was one of the ringleaders of the curfew-breaking crew. I upped the cash to $20 to compensate Edmonton for taking on 2 older, more expensive players than Carson and Gelinas, who were 18 and 20 (and cheap) at the time of the trade. Impact: Los Angeles continues to toil in the lower half of the Smythe Division with Winnipeg and Vancouver. Edmonton does not experience the fall-off in '88-'89 that they did after trading with LA. With a top 8 forward group of Kurri, Oates, Messier, Tikkanen, Simpson, Klima, Anderson, and MacTavish, they can roll out 2 high-scoring lines and a very solid 3rd line. Rather than losing to Gretzky's Kings in the first round, they contend with Calgary for the Smythe championship, possibly Detroit for the Campbell championship, and possibly win another Stanley Cup. Over the next several seasons, this trade would have made Edmonton stronger than the LA trade did. Detroit ends up with 2 of the top 3 centers in the league for '88-'89, along with Gallant, MacLean, Krushelnyski, Barr, and Burr. In real life, Yzerman had his career-best year playing mostly with Gallant and MacLean this season. Having Gretzky on his team--and maybe his line--could have made that even better. McSorley would have been a great third "Bruise Brother", especially considering Probert missed most of this season and didn't produce much when he did play. It sure would have been an intimidating lineup to play against! The Wings did finish first in the Norris that year, but with 80 points in 80 games, wouldn't have finished higher than 4th in any other division and were upset in the first round by a brutal Chicago team, who wouldn't have even come close to making the playoffs in any other division. With Gretzky, Krushelnyski, and McSorley, the Wings fare better in the regular season and at least get by Chicago and St Louis before bowing out to Edmonton or Calgary in the Campbell final. Over the next several seasons, the Wings are stronger with this trade than without, for several reasons. 1, Gretzky (duh). 2, it saves them from making a couple bad trades in the upcoming seasons--the Oates/MacLean for Federko/McKegney DEBACLE, and the Klima/Murphy/Graves/Sharples for Carson/McClelland deal. Gretzky may have wanted to go to LA after a few years here, but the Wings would still have been able to get a nice package for him. Graves might have been a long-time Wing, not Ranger. Bottom line, if they were able to pull off this trade, I think the Wings would have ended up winning a Cup sooner than '97... maybe they would have gotten one or two in the '90-'93 window.

Novi is crowded as hell already. It doesn't have the infrastructure to add a project of this magnitude. Detroit does. Plus, we've seen with the Silverdome and the Palace, that suburban arena/stadium entertainment districts are not sustainable. There's next-to-nothing by the Palace. The points of this project are to keep the team downtown (Ilitch wouldn't have it any other way) and to help revive the city of Detroit.

All Ken Holland contracts have an implied NMC...

Giving contracts to washed-up guys

Jurco would be in the lineup every night.

This is completely stupid. #FireHolland

I'm OK with them bringing back Gustavsson for one year. Two years would have been a problem for me. Mrazek will play 60+ games in Grand Rapids unless he is called up to Detroit for any length of time. My prediction is that he'll back up Howard in 15/16 and start 25 games, see more of an even split in 16/17, and take over the starting role in 17/18, if not sooner.

60... that's a toughie!!

I was pumped when we got Carson, I thought he was going to be a stud here. He didn't perform badly, just not at the levels he did in LA and Edmonton... I forgot we got Coffey for him! I completely agree with your last paragraph. He is afraid to move "assets"... I saw an interview with him on TV where he talked about that very thing. He said (paraphrased) that players were assets and you hang on to them, why would you move them? I was a little dumbfounded... Wayne Friggin' Gretzky has been traded! Twice!! You can move anybody you want! The last time Holland has traded what I consider a "roster regular" (top 8 F, top 4 D, starting G) was... 2001. Slava Kozlov. For Hasek, who would have been a UFA the very next day. I never really understood that deal. Why not wait, sign him, and keep Kozlov? Or move him for someone else? Also, I don't count Brad Stuart in that equation, since he was days away from being a UFA himself, and it was clear he was going back go Cali. (Side note... where was Holland when Stuart got traded to Colorado the other day??)

That's a great story He has always seemed like a good guy. Hope he can beat the cancer.

That's true, I couldn't remember how many times he had traded down. And to be honest, I don't have a problem with trading #24 for #35 and #48. 24 and 35 are pretty much a wash anyway. Quincey is the one that's backfired. My issue is that Holland seems afraid to try to make more moves that could improve the team... sometimes standing pat doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help, either. No risk, no reward. Perhaps he looks back to the Oates trade or the big Oilers trade (Graves, Carson, etc.) where the Wings got burned and doesn't want to be that GM... I don't know. If it were up to Holland completely, most of the "solid young core" would still be in Grand Rapids.

I don't disagree. I think it might be 2 or 3 moves, but that includes subtraction. My issue is that Holland doesn't seem to have the minerals to make those moves anymore.

I believe that as long as he doesn't move in either direction, the team will continue to be stuck in neutral, fighting just to make the playoffs each year. I don't want him to compromise the future either, I don't think it's worth it. Neither is hanging on to the past.

You said he "never" did anything to build for an immediate run and sacrifice the future. He did. Yes, it was a while ago, before the Cap. But that's not "never". *edit-- 4 of 9 first rounders traded since 2006.

I think it should completely depend on how Mantha looks in the preseason. If he proves he belongs in our top 6, put him there. If he doesn't, don't. There is a hole in the roster in the top 6. Abdelkader isn't a top 6 forward, Alfredsson isn't signed as of now... so there's a spot available. I think if he shows he truly belongs here but still gets sent down to open the season, that could be just as damaging to his confidence as keeping him here and having him struggle a bit.

Do you really think NHL players don't pay any attention to other teams, other players? I'd bet that most of them have a good idea of what's going on in other cities. A lot of these guys have friends on other teams. They also play against these teams all season, every season. To say they don't study their opponents enough to know who's doing what for other teams... man, I wouldn't say that. And it's not one year of striking out, it's multiple years of July 1st and Trade Deadline swings and misses. Also, what do you call giving away early-round draft picks like Halloween candy in 1999 and sitting out the first round in 9 of the last 15 drafts?