toby91_ca

Yes, I understand the whole debate around the millennium, birth of Christ, all that...........but, from a hockey perspective, I think most would consider the 1990 Cup winning team to be considered the first team to win in the 90's, not the 1991 team.

You feel that way because........? If he were an UFA this summer, teams would be offering him a lot more than $5.3 million. I know that is not the scenario he is in, but signing for 5 years takes him past his first year in which he would have been eligible for UFA.

Maybe he hasn't lived up to expectations yet, but I'm not sure the expectations were for him to be a star right away. I think most thought he may not even be a full timer yet. The guy needs to work on rebound control, he is improving there and he needs to work on consistency....those things come with experience. When he is on, he's one of the best. Edit: Oh, what I was really disputing was your use of the word "bust" - I think it's far too early to be using that term.

http://www.timesonline.com/articles/2007/1...42710206749.txt Fairly interesting article. I think Madden is a bit of an idiot, but I agree with some of the concepts in his article. There has been some rumblings in Pittsburgh about problems in the locker room. It's not really a problem amongst players, but more between players and management/coaching. From what I have heard, the older players and the younger players like each other, that isn't the problem, the problem is the apparent double standard displayed by management......which is somewhat articulated in the article. I have a few views on the Pens situation. 1. There is far to much expected from that team....they are simply not good enough yet. They shouldn't even be compared to the Oilers of the early 80's, that's just dumb, but if you were to compare them, you would realize that the Oilers were not instantly successful. 2. Madden is right, they don't manage the players very well. It is important to have a good mix between youth and experience, but you need to use your players properly. We really have to be thankful for the way the Wings are run. There is a great mix of youth and experience and the guys are used properly. Chelios is getting older, but he isn't used in a major role. As he's aged, his role has been reduced. He is still useful to the team, but you are not going to play him 25 minutes a night. Lidstrom is getting older, but still is one of the top D in the league, when he starts to decline, I'm sure his role will decline as well. It doesn't work that way in Pittsburgh. I think Recchi was getting 20 minutes a night last year and he's still getting 16-17 minutes this year. Recchi and Roberts are almost useless now, yet they continue to play larger roles with the team....it just doesn't make sense.

The guys on the ballot are there mostly due to what they accomplished during the last half of last season or what they are expected to accomplish this year. Huet for example, came in and saved Montreal's season last year from what I remember....got them into the playoffs and played pretty damn well in the playoffs. Gerber was a backup last year and didn't play at all in the playoffs. I'm pretty sure pretty much everyone thought he would be the backup this year as well.

I doubt he even plays in the game.

His cap hit wouldn't come into play until next year though, a lot can happen between now and then.

How is it crap? Right now, he is simply not All-star caliber, let alone a player that you would expect to be voted in as a starter or close to it.

I think that would be completely unfair. The guy is 22 years old, he's younger than Howard for example. Not a lot of goalies are in the league at that age. It really is not a very good situation to be breaking a young goaltender into the league with the kind of defense they have.

Disagree...you should start from 0. When you were born, you were not 1 year old. On your first birthday, you turned 1, the next day is the first day in your 2nd year of life.

I'm not sure how true that is. In terms of trades, the only way it would help is if you are trying to trade for someone that has a NTC. May help a little in drawing UFA's though. But with respect to Rafalski, I wouldn't say he took a discount to come here. Rafaslki is making $6 million, the list of defensemen making more than that is not a very long one: Pronger - $6.25 million Timonen - $6.3 million (comparable stats with Rafalski and I suspect Philly was a little desperate on D when they signed him) Redden - $6.5 million (a great defenseman who will likely sign for less this year to stay in Ottawa) Jovo - $6.5 million (this guy is obviously overpaid) Chara - $7.5 million (probably overpaid, but he was coveted when he signed) Lidstrom - $7.6 million

I'm not so sure about that....we could make a Seinfeld episode out of it though. Edit: I look at it this way, when the calendar changes from 2009 to 2010 you are actually working on the first year (2011) of the next decade, by the time the calendar changes to 2011, that first year of the decade is already complete.

Well, that's what happens when you have a franchised as storied as that. Edit: Speaking of the Canadians, this could be the first decade (2000-2009) that they have not won a cup. They would have to win it either this year or next to avoid that....not looking good for that to happen. 1910's - 1 cup 1920's - 1 cup 1930's - 2 cups 1940's - 2 cups 1950's - 5 cups 1960's - 5 cups 1970's - 6 cups 1980's - 1 cup 1990's - 1 cup

I'm not surprised at all. Who else do they have? Staal performed a little beyond his capabilities last year. He is still a good PKer, but he needs more experience and needs to improve his skating. Sykora is okay, but nothing great. I think the fact that they have Crosby and Malkin makes them scary, but they really have nothing beyond that. Play them together, teams will just focus on shutting that line down, separate them and you have to leave it up to them to do it all themselves, which they can do a bit, but not enough to win games. They have no defense and a young goalie. I think if the guys stay together, the team will grow to be great, but it won't be this year and probably not next year.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think the Wings have a great system. They don't tend to hold on to older guys to play in key roles, so as the older guys retire, they won't be left with nothing. Take Chelios for example, yes he is aging and will retire soon, but his retirement won't significantly hurt the team as he has already begun taking less responsibility. We'll see what happens with Lidstrom, he still is capable of logging all those minutes and all that responsibility, but if he goes from that to retired....it will hurt the Wings. As long as they keep up that type of system, they should be okay for awhile. HOWEVER....they will not contend every year, it simply won't happen. I shouldn't be so absolute, but if they were able to contend from now until the end of time, it will be the first sports franchise in history to do so. The Yankees have gone through tough years, The Canadiens have gone through tough years, etc. Especially in a cap world, it may be more difficult....or easier, depending on how you look at it.

If he retired today, he's in.

I think you place far too much emphasis on winning a cup in terms of HOF worthiness, but I understand that is my opinion, which you do not necessarily agree with. I think winning a cup is more of a team thing.....which Forsberg had a few HOFers helping him with his winning and Brind'Amour, well, it's not exactly like did it on his own either. Did Ray Bourque all of a sudden boost his legacy when he went to Colorado and won the cup?

You still don't explain how your examples mean anything. Turgeon - sorry, he's not playing anymore, but he's not eligible to get into the HOF for another 3 years, so if he doesn't get in 3 years from now, bring him up as an example as to why Sundin shouldn't get in and then we can debate some more. Bure - chalk this up as another Lindros example. Bure was great when he was healthy, but he wasn't healthy long enough. I don't see how someone who has 500pts less than Sundin is a good statistical comparison. Fleury - good stats, but not comparable to Sundin's. Fleury did not win the Calder....where is that info coming from? Dino - how is this not a bad example? You are describing him as someone who should have gotten in. I think your argument was that Sundin shouldn't get in....not why he should, but won't. Also, Dino isn't in for very specific reasons that do not apply to Sundin. Oates - he'll get in, so I don't see how he is a good example. I can buy the fact that some people have different opinions on different players, I am just confused as hell why you would leave Sundin out, but think Forsberg and Brind'Amour should be in....makes no sense to me.

There may be a bit of a difference in skill between the two: Kostopolous: Junior - 196gp, 64g, 162pts AHL - 382gp, 122g, 317pts Fedoruk: Junior - 194gp, 27g, 57pts AHL - 84gp, 5 g, 23pts

Okay, your examples: Turgeon - he's still playing....bad example Dino - he's been snubbed for obvious reasons....bad example Bure - Sundin has almost 500 more points....bad example Fleury - Sundin has significantly more points and a better ppg...bad example Oates - he didn't get in his first chance...he was up against Messier, Francis, Stevens and McInnis....bad example Also, not of them have the resume that Sundin has beyond goals and assists. Did you read the other reasons I mentioned, or did you ignore them as not mattering too much?

I would think you would know a little bit more about Ovechkin considering your screen name, but anyway. Just you can be clear on a couple things: - His base salary is $984k, but his cap hit is $3.8 million+ (though much less if traded at the deadline) - Unless the Caps were to get a fantastic return for him in a trade (which they wouldn't), he WILL NOT BE TRADED THIS YEAR! They are not risking losing him for nothing, he will be a RFA this summer if he's not signed before July 1st. If a team signs him to an offer sheet, then the Caps can match, or they can accept the compensation they would receive, which would be something like 5 first round draft picks.

Your are correct in that the list of goalies that have scored a goal in the NHL is not very long.....however, scoring a goal does nothing for me in terms of making a case for the HOF.

#1 - it wasn't just a little chop, it was pretty bad #2 - he agrees with the punishment, his team does, why are you complaining? #3 - please help me understand how Bettman is involved in this suspension. I'm starting to hate myself for all the Bettman defenses, because I really dislike the guy, but I find he gets WAY TOO MUCH negativity thrown his way for things he doesn't even control.

Since there are "a lot" who have similar stats, but not in the hall, could you provide one example at least?

Let's start with this: - 500+ goals - Close to 1,300 pts - More than a point per game over his career - 9 time NHL Allstar - Longest serving Euro captain in NHL history - Holds NHL record for most consecutive 70+ pt seasons - Leafs all-time leader in goals and points (yes, this means something) - 3 World Championships - 1 Olympic Gold Medal - Named best forward at 1992 World Championships - Canada Cup Allstar team - 1991 - World Cup Allstar team - 1996 - Olympic Allstar team - 2002