toby91_ca

How can someone seriously compile a top 10 list since 1980 and leave both Messier and Bourque off? These two are up there in terms of ALL TIME greats. Leaving them off of a top ten list since 1980 invalidates your list in my opinion....you know who you are.

Not true.

I gotta say, this is some strange commentary. You think having massive amount of assists is an example of why he isn't better than others? You know he also has more goals than anyone else as well right? If assists are so easy to come by nowadays, why are there not more players that have 100 assist seasons?

Your words.. no way that any NHL player should only have 5 goals in 72 games, regardless of your role on the team, unless it's being a goalie. Didn't saying anything about defensemen.

I'm not sure the replays were enough to declare it a goal. Yes, when he lifted his bad, you could see the puck clearly over the line, but there is zero evidence showing when it got there. He could have very easily slid back with the puck under him after the play. I think it probably was a goal, just don't think the video conclusively shows it being a goal. If I were the Pens and fighting for a playoff spot, I'd probably be upset. This was a back to back game and they are playing 17 games in 31 days in March, Thibault will be getting starts, but I do not think there is any question at all who their number 1 guy is going into the playoffs. Fleury - 35-14-8 Thibault - 6-8-2

How about winning 3 scoring titles? May not sound like much, but there are only 5 other guys in the history of the game (I think) that have been able to win more than 3 throughout their entire careers. Also, Gretzky played from 1991 on with a wonky back, that had more to do with decline than playing for a different team than the Oilers. Gretzky has a lot of crazy records, but to me, the most interesting one of all is assists. There are only 3 guys in the history of the game to ever have more than 100 assists in a season. Bobby Orr did in once (102), Mario did it once (114) and Gretzky did it 11 times!!! (highest - 163). And 3 of those seasons were post-Edmonton. It was 11 in a row actually. Would have been 12 if he played a full season, he had 90 in 74 games the next year. That stat is just unbelievable to me.

I expect much more than that if he wants to get paid what he is getting paid.

Lebda - 4 goals Markov - 3 goals Kronwall - 1 goal Chelios - 0 Lilja - 0 Granted, none of these guys have played 72 games, so maybe they are okay Come to think of it, looking at those stats makes me think Schneider is a little more important to this team than I originally thought. If he is gone in the offseason, his production will need to be replaced by someone.

Yeah, I fixed it, the data I was looking at only went up to 2004. Can't say it is an award I follow very closely.

So....I think your post is wrong in every way, unless I am losing it. As someone already pointed out, Gretzky served as captain pretty much his whole career, unless you are arguing the C was an iron on and not sewn on With respect to the Lester Patrick Trophy, Gretzky won this award in 1994.

Everyone is talking about how complete a player is and how he plays with heart, etc., etc., but I don't think that is the context of the discussion going on at the other board, from how it is described here. I thought the poster was talking about Yzerman and his offensive abilities, this has nothing to do with how complete his game is. We are only talking about one dimension here. I wouldn't get too worked up about this, as everyone will have different opinions. If they are way out in left field, that's one thing, but Stan Mikita, for example, won 4 scoring titles. You can argue whether or not Yzerman was better offensively than Mikita, but I wouldn't say someone is completely clueless for thinking Mikita is better offensively. I think we'd need to understand a little more about the frustration here. If you are trying to argue that Yzerman is top 2 or 3 all time offensively, I am sorry, I would disagree as well. So it all comes down to context and where you are trying to place him on the list.

Please explain the difference between Maltby last year and Maltby this year. If you have a hard time pointing to the difference, then how can you say you are disappointed? Are you not getting what you expect?

Before sustaining a serious back injury at the hands of Gary Sutur at the 1991 Canada Cup, this was his career stats: 925 games, 718 goals, 2,142 points. That would work out to 64 goals and 190 points over an 82 game schedule. He still put up decent numbers playing with a bad back the rest of his career, but nothing compared to where he was.

It is in mine, especially since they only won 21 all of last year. Their 31 regulation wins are only 1 less than Minnesota and 5 less than Buffalo.

What do you mean?

You can add me to any list that agrees with you. Shouldn't even be discussed. No offense to LIdstrom, Harvey is the best defensive defenseman ever, no question. Lidstrom wouldn't even be my #2 or #3 (not that I have given it any thought). Lidstrom is great because of offense and defence, but he's not the best in either.

He certainly looks pretty good in shootouts. I haven't tried fo verify stats, but I don't remember a lot of goals being scored on him in the shootout recently. I think the shootouts that they lose are generally when they can't score, not because Fluery lets in too many. Edit: I actually just checked some stats. Tampa Bay is the far and away best shootout team so far this year. They are 10-1 (Pens are 10-6). They have scored 14 goals and have only given up 3. Buffalo has 10 shootout wins and so does Minnesota. The Pens are actually only 8th in terms of winning % in the shootout. Hasek has actually been pretty pathetic in shootouts so far.

To be honest, I think you are completely wrong....using your words. I have watched a fair number of games and a lot of the games that end up going to OT have been games where they have given up the lead in the 3rd (not good sign either). Some games have been games where they have come back to tie. I do not think I have ever seen one of their games when they have been sitting back for the tie, either in regulation or OT. They are definately not the Devils. Also, they do well in the shootout because of Crosby, Christensen (sp?) and Fluery. Malkin has been terrible and has actually been taken out of the top 3 shooters the last couple games.

Getting 50 and 100 were pretty lofty expectations coming into the year though. 40 and 90 would have been more realistic. He was definately a disappointment early on, but he made up for that. Also consider that it is very likely that there will only be one 50 goal scorer this year. You are right about Ovechkin though. He has still put up pretty good numbers (not as good as last year though), but there really hasn't been a lot of highlight reel plays from him this year.

To me that really doesn't make a difference anyway....just another person's opinion. He barely played against Orr and played even less against Gretzky.

Why the disappointment in Maltby? I see him as producing pretty much as expected. He is having pretty much the identical season this year as last. Was the expectation that he would improve? If so, I think that would have been a very optimistic expectation. I am not bashing Maltby, simply saying he is what he is. He is still valuable in certain ways to the team, but not sure why anyone would have any expectations of him doing more than he has done so far this year.

For a young team, I would almost think that it is a good thing that a lot of their games are going to OT and shootout. They have a winning record in OT and a winning record in the shootout. While you may say that they may not have been able to get it done in regulation or OT, you could also say that not many teams have been able to beat them in regulation or OT either, works both ways.

I really don't think they have much of a chance. But in the playoffs, anything can happen. I just think that they have FAR TOO MANY players who have yet to play a single playoff game (their best players). Even the great Oilers in the 80's took some time.

Another what if.....what if Gary Suter (I think), didn't hit Gretzky from behind into the boards halfway into Gretzky's career? He was not the same player since. Forgot to mention earlier: Orr is a defenseman, Gretzky a forward, very difficult to compare. It's even difficult to compare centermen vs. wingers.

Their suspect defense and inconsistent goaltending suggests they do not have much of a chance, especially when goals become tougher to come by in the playoffs. That said, if Fluery gots hot, you never know.