toby91_ca

They got pretty lucky too though....even if you have the first pick every year, you don't see guys like Crosby or Malking come around that often. They did well to finish the season last year, but they didn't get out of the first round of the playoffs. If Crosby doesn't come back, I think you'll see their opponent do their best to shut Malkin down....if they can do that, the Pens won't go far.

Personally, I don't really care about that either. It is nice to have been in this position for a long time....not having to worry about making the playoffs. Until the time comes that they are fighting for a spot again, I won't get fussed about racking up points in the regular season. However, and that's a big However, maybe this year it is more important to get home ice advantage (obvious reasons).

Yes...look back a few posts

I guess this shows that there is still debate then. To me, looks like he gets both feet off the ice, quite a bit before the point of contact. If you focus on Kronwall's body in the slow motion part of the video, you can see very clearly when contact is made....if you immediately look down at the feet, they are already very far off the ice.

He jumped into the hit.

No, there's still debate. The hit on Kesler is charging, no doubt.

It's interesting, the Wings set the record for most consecutive wins on the road a few years ago (12). Am I that forgetful? I don't remember a big deal being made about it.

Maybe it was previously disputed, who knows. Either way though, no real reason to bring it up again until now. If the Wings win their next game at home it really won't matter anyway.

Yeah, I don't know about leading with the butt. I think that could be dangerous (to Kronwall). I think there is a risk of lower back injury there. I've been playing hockey since I was 5 and I never missed a game because of injury until I was in my mid-20s when I broke my wrist. However, I do remember going butt first into the boards one time and tweaking my lower back. I get lower back pains every now and then now, but I'm not sure if that is simply age or someting to do with that incident. That said, I'm guessing hitting a human will give a little bit more than the boards...but not sure about that.

That's not the argument though, I'm not aware of anyone saying it is easy, of course it isn't, it's a signficant accomplishment. What some are saying is that is is difficult to compare against a record that was set in the late 70s went there was no shootouts. The argument isn't that it is easy, the argument is what is more impressive, 21 straight wins today or 20 straight wins in 1976? They will point out that without the shootout, the Wings streak would have stopped at 12 games. Personally, I think it is a valid point, but at the same time, I don't get too caught up in it. I'm not sure why, but this type of streak doesn't grab my interest that much....I think it's cool and all, I just don't get too worked up about it. Yeah, that's weird. Or, maybe they are saying you need to win 22 to have the reord, not 21 since Boston has the record at 21? That wouldn't matter, they must have lost their next home game, otherwise the record would not be at 20 games.

I don't know about that, I think people generally love to see records broken....maybe just not the people that formally held that record, or maybe everyone loves the player that held a record and they don't like the player that comes along a breaks it. Generally though, I think people like seeing records get broken.

I agree, a lot are borderline, some are clear that he leaves his feet before contact, some are not clear, some are clear that he leaves his feet after contact. Personally, I don't like that type of hit regardless, I don't like players accelerating up into a hit. To answer the original question though, I think big hits, clean or not, used to incite some response in years past as well. If you want to hit one of our players hard, expect pay back....you don't want to be seen as a team that will get bullied like that.

The OT/SO (especially SO) is a legitimate point though....it's impact is quite huge. That doesn't keep anyone from patting them on the back though...it's jut pointing out a fact.

If Washington finishes in 8th, it's be a move up, not a drop....they currently sit in 9th.

Howe led his team to 4 cups (11 appearances) - I know....different times. Of the 4 cups that you say Lidstrom led the team to, wasn't Yzerman the captain for 3 of them? Isn't that like saying Messier is the greatest Oiler because he led the team to 5 cups? Not saying Lidstrom is or isn't higher on the list than Yzerman, I'm just not sure this is a great argument either way.

I think you have to go pretty far back in Bertuzzi's family tree before you find someone that was actually born in Italy. I have read that he does have Italian heritage, but he's unsure of the specifics. I do know that the only time he's ever been to Italy was for the 2006 Olympics. I wonder how many of the other "Italian" players in the NHL have actually been to Italy.

But Yzerman really had no chance at that. Big difference between a league of 6 teams and a league of 30 teams (finishing in the top 5 in scoring consistently in today's game is much, much more difficult). That said, in any era, that type of consistency is incredible since most guys don't even play for close to that long, let alone stay healthy enough to finish that high in scoring each year. However, I'm not sure that would be an "official" record because technically, Howe finished 6th in scoring in 1960. While he was tied for 5th in points with Henri Richard, Richard had more goals, so Richard finishes 5th and Howe 6th.

Rinaldo didn't target the head either though. I agreed with everything Shanny said, it was clearly a charge, which is why it should have been a penalty. I don't see why there is a suspension though. I guess what Rinaldo did last week weighed heavily into this as I don't see how what he did is worse than what Kronwall has done...see earlier video in this thread. Leaving your feet to make a hit does not = suspension automatically. In a lot of cases, such a hit may target the head and will be suspensions, but when they don't, I think it's just a charging penalty. He didn't target the head and the NHL agrees he didn't, otherwise, he would have gotten more than 2 games. If they wanted to suspend him, they should have done so last week. You are correct, Big E shouldn't have been doing what he did, but that doesn't mean he should get hit the way he did. I agree with no suspension though.

Any of 16+ teams right. At the end of the regular season....any of 16 teams. I would never go on a limb and say only a,b,c,x,y, or z are capable of winning it all. I've seen too many intances of teams I never thought had a chance in the past.

I think you are losing me to. If you are having a discussion about all time greats, I don't think McCarty or Draper should even me allowed to know about the discussion, let alone be involved in it

I think the clutch and grab style of hockey has started creaping back in...perhaps it has been for a few years. I wonder if the league is actually "behind closed doors" promoting it a bit as a way of slowing the game down to help offset concussion risks. I haven't checked any other stats, but I'm sure if you did, you'd see overall scoring down, power play opportunities per team per game down, etc. I had a look at the total number of players with 1 ppg or better each season since the lockout (ignorming guys that only played a handfull of games). 05/06 - 37 06/07 - 32 07/08 - 24 08/09 - 22 09/10 - 21 10/11 - 15 11/12 - 13 (to date) Datsyuk is currently 8th in scoring I think and he's only averaging 1 ppg. I think Neal is in 9th and has less than 1 ppg.

Off topic now, but interesting that you make reference to Lemieux in terms of how wide of a margin Howe led in points rather than Gretzky. I did a quick comparsion and learned a few things (actually, learned one thing and was reminded of a few others). I didn't realize just how much of a wide marging Howe was winning scoring titles. I guess I just assumed it was small since he didn't put up huge point totals. So here is my comparison in terms of how much each led the rest of the league in the years they won the scoring title. I've put % in brackets beause scoring was lower in Howe's ara so his margin would look a lot smaller otherwise. Howe: '51 - 20pts (30%) '52 - 17pts (25%) '53 - 24pts (34%) '54 - 14pts (21%) '57 - 4pts (5%) '63 - 5pts (6%) Lemieux: '88 - 31pts (18%) '89 - 19pts (13%) '92 - 8pts (7%) '93 - 12pts (8%) '96 - 12pts (8%) '97 - 13pts (12%) Gretzky: '81 - 29pts (21%) '82 - 65pts (44%) '83 - 72pts (58%) '84 - 86pts (68%) '85 - 73pts (54%) '86 - 74pts (52%) '87 - 75pts (69%) '90 - 13pts (10%) '91 - 32pts (24%) '94 - 10pts (8%) A lot of people discount Gretzky's stats because he played in an era where every scored a ton. This is true, but the extent to which he dominated is quite amazing. The bolded stats are just plain stupid. Another interesting note, if Lemieux didn't miss the entire 94/95 season, he or Gretzky would likely have won teh scoring title for 17 years in a row. Edit - formatting

Are you including Ray Bourque in his era? Not sure why you wouldn't since he was still playing for the first half of Lidstrom's career. So, if he's included in that era, there's no way I agree with Lidstrom being the best "by far." There was a time that I had Bourque ahead of Lidstrom, probably not anymore, but I'd have to step back, a number of years after Lidstrom retires and reassess. Problem is that I'd never have the proper objectivity. What I can say for sure though is that even if I conclude Lidstrom is the better player, there's no way it would be by a wide margin.

Personally, I think the streak is a little tainted....when comparing against past records anyway. It is an extremely impressive streak, no doubt. It is that much more crazy considering that they are only 15-15-1 on the road....why so much better at home...it's pretty strange for such a difference. Anyway, it was much more difficult to put such a streak together pre-shootout. Of their 20 wins, 3 were via shootout. Those games would have likely ended in ties 10 years ago. Without shootouts, perhaps they play OT differently to go for the win, but to think they would have won all 3 in OT is a bit of a stretch. Not to be a downer or anything, I just don't think it's the same when you are comparing against records. I guess you could say the same about scoring records too, but I think that's a little different. Edit: I echo the sentiment...not sure what I'd do without NHL Centre Ice.

Perhaps....but it is difficult to argue against 6 Art Ross and 6 Hart Trophies. I think a fair number of people would put that ahead of Lidstrom's 7 Norris trophies. I'm ignoring the Conn Smythe because Howe didn't really have a chance at that...the Detroit team he played for were pretty much out of the playoff picture by the time that award was introduced. I know awards isn't the best way to argue a point, but if you take away all of Lidstrom's Norris trophies....it makes it difficult to make a case for him as one of the greats.