seeinred

Yeah you totally don't seem to have anything against Val I would respond point by point, but that would only validate your trolling.

No one said that Val should be kept around because he's going to put up tons of points. He's here because he's VERY defensively responsible and can chip in with a decent amount of points too. It's not all about numbers, people. There are certain things that can't be measured when assessing a player's worth.

Where did he say better than Hank and Pavs? He said "one of the best players in the game." That doesn't mean he'd have to be better than them.

You would not be saying this if Val weren't a Finn. I think it's different with goalies and forwards. You make a forward a healthy scratch for a game or 2 to get him to shape up. In Flip's case, he gets that much ice time because Babs knows he's the 4th best player he could put out there.

This is the kind of thread we make fun of other boards for.

Not every (and by every I mean any) team can be as awesome as Detroit.

Let's go with 14 to 3. Someone scores a crazy amount of goals, too.

They probably would. But they don't. And doesn't the fact that he has so much more ESTOI than all those guys indicate that he's better than them overall? I mean if PPTOI indicates better offensive ability, wouldn't ESTOI indicate better ability period?

I appreciate the time you took to do all that, but I still don't agree. I just don't think it works like that. You can show me the ice time per point all you want, but what it comes down to is that people have the points they have with the ice time they have, and that's what really matters. Val gets almost no PP time. I'm not saying he'd put up astronomical points if he got a solid amount of it, but I am saying that if he got as much as even Franzen gets, I think he'd have enough points that people wouldn't be arguing his worth.

Funny, because I'd ask you the same thing. It's interesting how we can both look at the same numbers and draw completely different conclusions. And as you may be able to tell, yes, I do in fact happen to like Flip quite a bit I'll be defending Leino in the same way in a few years probably too.

Sure he does. Did Val rape your mom or something?

His PP time is also akin to playing the 1st 2 periods of a game on the PP. That's not what happens though. He averages 38 seconds per game on the PP. No one's going to put up numbers doing that. Filppula is putting up ES points like a 1st liner, and he's getting the ES TOI of a 2nd liner. I don't know what stats you're looking at. I'm just glad Holland, Babcock and co. don't put as much stock in PPM as you do.

He's actually 5th in ESTOI/G.

Notice how I didn't say "All that matters is..." I said "When it comes to points." I was just saying how dumb it is to say that A is better than B because A puts up more PPM with less ice time. The fact of the matter is, Val is 9th in PP time. Most people above him have at least 100 minutes more on the PP than he does. It's not that big of a stretch to say that even with Franzen's PP time, Flip could pretty easily be 4th or 5th among forwards in points.

OK, so let me get this straight. There are 3 forwards per line, right? And Val is (or at least has been) on the 3rd line, right? So there are at least 6 forwards ahead of him? And somehow it's a bad thing he's 7th in production/minute. You can show all your points/minute s***, but the fact is, it doesn't matter. All that matters when it comes to points is the absolute number.

There seems to be an awful lot of C&D letters going around right now. myp2pforum is back up but they can't post any hockey links.

Holy s*** Cheli. Retire right now FFS.

Hossa > Nash.

Well, yeah, but that was the one that stood out most to me. This was in a Russian paper? Or what?

What? And giving Sergei a 6 on mobility is a gross underrating.

14 to 3 Wings, for reals. I third the Pasha hattie notion.

It's not THAT bad of a call. It's at least 2 for the hit from behind and another 2 for roughing. That last pair of minutes is a little puzzling though.

Friday: Boston @ New Jersey Detroit @ Columbus San Jose @ Buffalo NY Rangers @ Florida Chicago @ St Louis Vancouver @ Dallas Montreal @ Colorado Saturday: NY Islanders @ Philadelphia Edmonton @ Los Angeles Pittsburgh @ Toronto Columbus @ Carolina Washington @ Tampa Bay Boston @ Nashville Ottawa @ Minnesota Dallas @ Chicago Calgary @ Phoenix Sunday: Philadelphia @ NY Rangers San Jose @ New Jersey Washington @ Florida Colorado @ Detroit Carolina @ Buffalo Atlanta@ Anaheim Montreal @ Vancouver I know I'm gonna suck yet again this week.

14 to 3, and Leino gets back on a PPG pace.

Sigur Ros - Hoppipolla Yeah, that's how I'm rollin' tonight.