We need totally some other players right now

[Slave 31]

I have nothing agaisnt him other then like i said i do not think he hustles enough out there, Fil who i think has great potential is another guy i think coasts too much out there causing my vocal chords great strains some games.

Anyways you will not convince me that Sammy brings it as much as the next guy, sure he is not as talented as Z but he could at least try and match the enthusiasm Z has on the ice.

And not against you but in general alot of the people here who are now standing up for sammy cuz of his point totals are the same ones that were villifying him at the star of the season and wanted him off the team

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I have nothing agaisnt him other then like i said i do not think he hustles enough out there, Fil who i think has great potential is another guy i think coasts too much out there causing my vocal chords great strains some games.

Anyways you will not convince me that Sammy brings it as much as the next guy, sure he is not as talented as Z but he could at least try and match the enthusiasm Z has on the ice.

And not against you but in general alot of the people here who are now standing up for sammy cuz of his point totals are the same ones that were villifying him at the star of the season and wanted him off the team

Then there's no point in debating because I believe he does "bring it" to his ability most every night. There are plenty of skaters out there that look as if they are coasting when they are simply reading the play. I'm not saying Sammy is one of those, but I do disagree with your assessment.

I have nothing agaisnt him other then like i said i do not think he hustles enough out there, Fil who i think has great potential is another guy i think coasts too much out there causing my vocal chords great strains some games.

Anyways you will not convince me that Sammy brings it as much as the next guy, sure he is not as talented as Z but he could at least try and match the enthusiasm Z has on the ice.

And not against you but in general alot of the people here who are now standing up for sammy cuz of his point totals are the same ones that were villifying him at the star of the season and wanted him off the team

People are standing up for Sammy because they see what he brings to the table for the paycheck he's earning. If you can't see that, nothing will convince you.

[Slave 31]

All I am Saying is that if Fil was a right handed shot, he would be on the point on the PP instead of Sammy (cuz I hope we can agree that Fil is the better all around player) give Fil the 12 PP points Sammy has then people would see what I am seeing- that Sammy while a good bang for his buck is not as good as people are giving him and his point totals credit for, he did not magically turn into a superstar over the summer, he is for all intents and purposes the same player as last year that everyone hated.

If you don't agree then you don't agree there is nothing i can say that will change that as I am sure there is nothing you can say that can change my mind.

If Sammy starts pulling off 1 vs 3's and coming up with goals every game like Z or Hossa or Datsyuk then maybe we can have this conversation again with different results.

[Opie 308]

Slave,

I have stayed out of this argument because of how redundant it gets, but since last season one of the few people who has always backed Sammy is NFM25.

Yes there are a lot more Sammy supporters than there were last season, I chalk that up to people being a little more forgiving now that he has a cup to his name, but NFM was there from the start.

Plus you are expecting him to play like Dats Hossa or Z is completely illogical he is not that player and you may need to adjust your expectations of him. Do you expect Cleary to score 1 v 3?

No one here, as far as I can tell, is claiming Sammy is a superstar, just that he provides a lot more than most 1.2 million dollar players. He fills his role very nicely.

Ultimately is he tradeable or expendable, yes because of the fact he is not a superstar, because he is a solid NHL and there are many out there that put up Sammy numbers, like say Michael Ryder, who gets paid a lot more money, or Feds who, say what you want, puts up very similar numbers to Sammy but gets paid WAY more than Sammy.

To prevent the onslaught here are some numbers tell me A or B who is Sammy and who is Feds:

Player A:

Year__GP_G_A_PTS_PIM

05-06 71 23 22 45 42

06-07 53 14 20 34 28

07-08 3 11 29 40 26

Player B

Year__GP_G_A_PTS_PIM

05-06 62 12 31 43 64

06-07 73 18 24 42 56

07-08 68 11 30 41 38

Now who is who in 08-09?

Player A 08-09

13 4 5 9 16

Player B 08-09

24 5 16 21 18

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

All I am Saying is that if Fil was a right handed shot, he would be on the point on the PP instead of Sammy (cuz I hope we can agree that Fil is the better all around player) give Fil the 12 PP points Sammy has then people would see what I am seeing-

Of course Fil is the better all-around player, but he also makes a little over 2.5 times what Sammy does. That just strengthens the argument that Sammy is a solid deal. More than likely if Filppula was a RH'ed shot, he could very well replace Sammy on the PP however Sammy's there because of a lack of RH'ed options and because he's defensively responsible (which I'm sure you already know), but it doesn't change the fact that Sammy is there for the fact that he's responsible.

that Sammy while a good bang for his buck is not as good as people are giving him and his point totals credit for, he did not magically turn into a superstar over the summer, he is for all intents and purposes the same player as last year that everyone hated.

Nobody's making him out to be a Superstar. I (as well some others) are giving the credit he deserves and he's earned this season. Now, you're just blowing things out of proportion.

If you don't agree then you don't agree there is nothing i can say that will change that as I am sure there is nothing you can say that can change my mind.

Probably not, but I would like to think I've laid out a solid foundation behind my argument. You seem to either be skipping over the point I'm making about his value which is the whole basis for my argument. You say Sammy is good bang for his buck, yet not as good as people are giving him credit. People are giving him credit because for *what he makes* it makes him a solid deal for the Wings.

If Sammy starts pulling off 1 vs 3's and coming up with goals every game like Z or Hossa or Datsyuk then maybe we can have this conversation again with different results.

When Sammy gets paid like Hossa, Dats or what Z will get next season, then this comment will be valid. Until then, this comment is nothing more than apples to oranges.

Also and for the last time, this isn't about Sammy being great or people defending him. This is simply about the fact that Sammy brings a lot to the table for his price tag. If people can't see that, I feel they're blind or simply haters because its the trendy thing to do. Unfortunately (even though it should be fortunately), it seems a lot of people on LGW are starting to "get it" in regards to Sammy's value and now some are claiming that's becoming trendy. Sad when any trend is actually right, but in this case the new trend is actually the correct one.

[lets go pavel 2]

Also and for the last time, this isn't about Sammy being great or people defending him. This is simply about the fact that Sammy brings a lot to the table for his price tag. If people can't see that, I feel they're blind or simply haters because its the trendy thing to do. Unfortunately (even though it should be fortunately), it seems a lot of people on LGW are starting to "get it" in regards to Sammy's value and now some are claiming that's becoming trendy. Sad when any trend is actually right, but in this case the new trend is actually the correct one.

Yes. I have been critical of Sammy in the past, particularly last season, but I never (at least that I can recall) said he wasn't earning his keep or that we should get rid of him. My complaints last season were primarily twofold ... I didn't like him on the second line, and I didn't like him on the point during the PP. I still see him as a 3rd liner, but he has been playing better so far this year on the 2nd line and decent on the PP too.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Yes. I have been critical of Sammy in the past, particularly last season, but I never (at least that I can recall) said he wasn't earning his keep or that we should get rid of him. My complaints last season were primarily twofold ... I didn't like him on the second line, and I didn't like him on the point during the PP. I still see him as a 3rd liner, but he has been playing better so far this year on the 2nd line and decent on the PP too.

Whether or not you feel he deserves to be on the second line or the PP point really isn't an issue with Sammy though....its an issue with Babcock. I would agree that Sammy up until this season hasn't done too much to warrant a second line spot and as a result others have played on that line, but Sammy is making the most of it.....which is all one could ask. I thought Hudler-Z-Franzen was going to be lethal but Hudler struggled out of the gate. Filppula also isn't the right fit for that line because he doesn't have the vision a guy like Hudler does. It's actually pretty amazing that Sammy seems to be doing better than our other options right now. Credit him.

[lets go pavel 2]

Whether or not you feel he deserves to be on the second line or the PP point really isn't an issue with Sammy though....its an issue with Babcock. I would agree that Sammy up until this season hasn't done too much to warrant a second line spot and as a result others have played on that line, but Sammy is making the most of it.....which is all one could ask. I thought Hudler-Z-Franzen was going to be lethal but Hudler struggled out of the gate. Filppula also isn't the right fit for that line because he doesn't have the vision a guy like Hudler does. It's actually pretty amazing that Sammy seems to be doing better than our other options right now. Credit him.

Agreed, and I think I said as much last year ... unfortunately putting a player in a position he isn't suited for tends to reflect negatively on the player moreso than the coach, even if that isn't fair.

[Swede40 0]

Can't wait for Chelios to get back

[Opie 308]

Agreed, and I think I said as much last year ... unfortunately putting a player in a position he isn't suited for tends to reflect negatively on the player moreso than the coach, even if that isn't fair.

Here in lies the problem, your expectations, how can 24gp 5g 16a 21pts reflect negatively on ANYONE!!!!!!!!

He is not only a top 6 forward on this team points wise he is 4th on the team in points OVERALL, where is the negative reflection in that!?!?!?!?!?

[Slave 31]

This season Sammy has been putting up points lots from being on the pp, in my opinion and what i have been trying to convey all along (although i ramble a lot so it might not come out that way) is that I think he is not as good as his numbers suggest, I do not like the way he plays defensively I feel he could improve cuz I feel he is not giving 100%, I said the same thing about the entire 4th line for the better part of the first 14 games this season. I do not feel like he makes a great redwing I do not think his style is conductive to the rest of team. He only makes 1.2 mil and he has a boat load of points but i had to pick 1 guy to offload it would be him based solely on the fact that I do not think he fits the wings style of play, I would rather have an unproven guy for 1/2 as much money take his place ie Abdelkader or Leino or a guy who is semi proven ..Meech or Helm take his place as I FEEL they could do at least as good if not better, There is always room for players to develope and evolve into better players, I just think Sammy has peaked and plateau'd and what we see is what we get.

I find myself saying "WHAT THE F@#$ SAMMY!!!" more then i do saying "GOOD SOLID PLAY THERE SAMMY, NICE PASS, WAY TO KEEP IT IN" etc

Sure every player has moments where they are not perfect or they make a bonehead plays, it just seems to me that sammy does it with a lot more consistency.

All i said at the beginning of the thread was that even though sammy has some points i still think he looks useless out there 90% of the time. All this other talk kind of took it off track, but I still believe what i write, he has done nothing major too change my opinion on him as a player over last year when i thought he was useless 90% of the time as well.

Edited December 2, 2008 by Slave

[lets go pavel 2]

Here in lies the problem, your expectations, how can 24gp 5g 16a 21pts reflect negatively on ANYONE!!!!!!!!

He is not only a top 6 forward on this team points wise he is 4th on the team in points OVERALL, where is the negative reflection in that!?!?!?!?!?

I was referring to his play last year. His play is more than meeting my expectations this year.

[Opie 308]

I was referring to his play last year. His play is more than meeting my expectations this year.

Fine last year

73 11 29 40 21

6th overall forward on the team, 8th player points wise, higher than both Franzen and Flip.

Your expectations are that he will be a great player, he is not he is a very solid NHLer nothing more nothing less. He is a top 6 forward that costs 1.2 mil. Find me a player in the league that does it at that cost and is not on their 1st NHL contract.

Franzen is making 1.15, he has yet to have one season in which he has put up better numbers than Sammy's average season yet he is adorned the next big thing, yeah at almost ******* 30! Do you know what kind of year Sammy had the year he turned 29?

71 23 22 45 42

Again your expectations of the player are too high.

Do you also takes points away from Z for being on the PP?, Flip? Kronwall? Lids? Pavel? need I keep going?

[lets go pavel 2]

Fine last year

73 11 29 40 21

6th overall forward on the team, 8th player points wise, higher than both Franzen and Flip.

Your expectations are that he will be a great player, he is not he is a very solid NHLer nothing more nothing less. He is a top 6 forward that costs 1.2 mil. Find me a player in the league that does it at that cost and is not on their 1st NHL contract.

Franzen is making 1.15, he has yet to have one season in which he has put up better numbers than Sammy's average season yet he is adorned the next big thing, yeah at almost ******* 30! Do you know what kind of year Sammy had the year he turned 29?

71 23 22 45 42

Again your expectations of the player are too high.

Do you also takes points away from Z for being on the PP?, Flip? Kronwall? Lids? Pavel? need I keep going?

Dude, did you read my posts? I just said I saw him as a 3rd liner last year ... my expectations for him aren't that high at all. You just quoted me saying his play is "more than meeting my expectations this year". I haven't taken any points away from him for being on the PP, I think he's earned every point he's gotten and every dollar he makes. He is well worth the 1.2, and earlier in thread made the same challenge to find someone else making the same amount who would be better. I've been defending Sammy's play, I think you're arguing with the wrong guy ...

[Opie 308]

This season Sammy has been putting up points lots from being on the pp, in my opinion and what i have been trying to convey all along (although i ramble a lot so it might not come out that way) is that I think he is not as good as his numbers suggest, I do not like the way he plays defensively I feel he could improve cuz I feel he is not giving 100%, I said the same thing about the entire 4th line for the better part of the first 14 games this season. I do not feel like he makes a great redwing I do not think his style is conductive to the rest of team. He only makes 1.2 mil and he has a boat load of points but i had to pick 1 guy to offload it would be him based solely on the fact that I do not think he fits the wings style of play, I would rather have an unproven guy for 1/2 as much money take his place ie Abdelkader or Leino or a guy who is semi proven ..Meech or Helm take his place as I FEEL they could do at least as good if not better, There is always room for players to develope and evolve into better players, I just think Sammy has peaked and plateau'd and what we see is what we get.

I find myself saying "WHAT THE F@#$ SAMMY!!!" more then i do saying "GOOD SOLID PLAY THERE SAMMY, NICE PASS, WAY TO KEEP IT IN" etc

Sure every player has moments where they are not perfect or they make a bonehead plays, it just seems to me that sammy does it with a lot more consistency.

All i said at the beginning of the thread was that even though sammy has some points i still think he looks useless out there 90% of the time. All this other talk kind of took it off track, but I still believe what i write, he has done nothing major too change my opinion on him as a player over last year when i thought he was useless 90% of the time as well.

90% of the time, that is pretty far fetched, do you honestly think he would be playing if he was useless for 90% of the time. Did you really do the math to figure out that 90% of the time he is on the ice he is useless, did you look at every single second of every single game to see if he stopped an icing call, or prevented a break away or even if he was just covering his area in the defensive zone.

NO you got caught up in the whipping boy phenomenon and instead of seeming like a flip flopper you are arguing that in your opinion he is useless 90% of the time without a single stitch or evidence all you have is what you feel. Because there is nothing out there to say he is useless 90% of the time.

And the reason you find yourself saying he is bad more than you do good is because you are looking for his f*** ups, and not what he does good.

Dude, did you read my posts? I just said I saw him as a 3rd liner last year ... my expectations for him aren't that high at all. You just quoted me saying his play is "more than meeting my expectations this year". I haven't taken any points away from him for being on the PP, I think he's earned every point he's gotten and every dollar he makes. He is well worth the 1.2, and earlier in thread made the same challenge to find someone else making the same amount who would be better. I've been defending Sammy's play, I think you're arguing with the wrong guy ...

Sorry you are right I did confuse you and what you were saying, sorry.

[The Secret 304]

This season Sammy has been putting up points lots from being on the pp, in my opinion and what i have been trying to convey all along (although i ramble a lot so it might not come out that way) is that I think he is not as good as his numbers suggest, I do not like the way he plays defensively I feel he could improve cuz I feel he is not giving 100%, I said the same thing about the entire 4th line for the better part of the first 14 games this season. I do not feel like he makes a great redwing I do not think his style is conductive to the rest of team. He only makes 1.2 mil and he has a boat load of points but i had to pick 1 guy to offload it would be him based solely on the fact that I do not think he fits the wings style of play, I would rather have an unproven guy for 1/2 as much money take his place ie Abdelkader or Leino or a guy who is semi proven ..Meech or Helm take his place as I FEEL they could do at least as good if not better, There is always room for players to develope and evolve into better players, I just think Sammy has peaked and plateau'd and what we see is what we get.

I find myself saying "WHAT THE F@#$ SAMMY!!!" more then i do saying "GOOD SOLID PLAY THERE SAMMY, NICE PASS, WAY TO KEEP IT IN" etc

Sure every player has moments where they are not perfect or they make a bonehead plays, it just seems to me that sammy does it with a lot more consistency.

All i said at the beginning of the thread was that even though sammy has some points i still think he looks useless out there 90% of the time. All this other talk kind of took it off track, but I still believe what i write, he has done nothing major too change my opinion on him as a player over last year when i thought he was useless 90% of the time as well.

Yup, this is exactly what I think too. I just can't stand the way he plays and I would still rather see that 1.2 mill put to different use. And for the record I have never liked Sammy in a Wings uniform.

[Opie 308]

So he loses credit for being on the PP, yet Dats doesn't nor does Cleary, who by the way looked abysmal in Boston.

Seriously in legit hockey terms not I see he is not "Busting it" or "He sucks how can you not see it" what is it that he does so horribly?

I just don't see it, is he the second coming of Gretz, no he is Mikael Samuelsson, he is what he is, a 5-7 forward on a good team and a 3-5 forward on a bad team. He is right handed, which the wings have a lack of, he puts up 30+ points a year, he is defensively responsible, can play the PP point, can pk.

Can he stick handle like Dats NO, can He score like Z NO, but who expects him to.

Please put into words, hockey terms, what it is he does that is so wrong?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Seriously....I'm done.

The only arguments being made are ones such as "I don't feel Sammy is has good as his numbers suggest" or "I find myself saying "What the F*ck Sammy!"

Great arguments. [/sarcasm]

Guess what, the numbers are indicative of his play. Yes, he has some garbage points....*who the f*** doesn't?* Once in a while I say, "What are you doing Sammy?" Guess what, I did that with Z last night on his bonehead clearing attempt. For the love of God people, there aren't any better proven options out there for $1.2 million and Kenny and Co need players like that to fill out the roster in a salary capped NHL.

This is not that complicated. Apparently it is....

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

So he loses credit for being on the PP, yet Dats doesn't nor does Cleary, who by the way looked abysmal in Boston.

Seriously in legit hockey terms not I see he is not "Busting it" or "He sucks how can you not see it" what is it that he does so horribly?

I just don't see it, is he the second coming of Gretz, no he is Mikael Samuelsson, he is what he is, a 5-7 forward on a good team and a 3-5 forward on a bad team. He is right handed, which the wings have a lack of, he puts up 30+ points a year, he is defensively responsible, can play the PP point, can pk.

Can he stick handle like Dats NO, can He score like Z NO, but who expects him to.

Please put into words, hockey terms, what it is he does that is so wrong?

I'll even answer this one for you Opie.

He turns the puck over as much or a little less than anyone else for his payscale, yet people constantly notice it because of an irrational hatred for the guy.

[Opie 308]

I'll even answer this one for you Opie.

He turns the puck over as much or a little less than anyone else for his payscale, yet people constantly notice it because of an irrational hatred for the guy.

You know that is what I was thinking all along, I guess I should fail Kronner and stop using logic, but then again what will happen to his fantasy team!! (the last part is an inside joke, if you don't get it oh well!)

[mjlegend 155]

As a non-Sammy fan, Sammy's having himself quite the year. I hope he likes it wherever some sun belt team overpays him next year. There's no way I'd pay him Mike Fisher-kind of money.

IN the future, I'd like a D on the power play point (Kindl?), but for now this will do just fine.

[Johnny Law 15]

For the love of God people, there aren't any better options out there for $1.2 million and Kenny and Co need players like that to fill out the roster in a salary capped NHL.

This is not that complicated. Apparently it is....

Quoted for emphasis, guys like Sammy are going to be the key to success in the cap era. Gone are the days you can fill your roster with $$$ guys, the bang for the buck ratio on Sammy is real high. Say what you want about him but 1.2 to Flip's 3 or Finger's 3 is a steal.

Someone's going to be the odd man out next year as there are no simple fixes to be found, the key is going to be what the kids in GR can do when the move up to the NHL.

[Slave 31]

So he loses credit for being on the PP, yet Dats doesn't nor does Cleary, who by the way looked abysmal in Boston.

Seriously in legit hockey terms not I see he is not "Busting it" or "He sucks how can you not see it" what is it that he does so horribly?

I just don't see it, is he the second coming of Gretz, no he is Mikael Samuelsson, he is what he is, a 5-7 forward on a good team and a 3-5 forward on a bad team. He is right handed, which the wings have a lack of, he puts up 30+ points a year, he is defensively responsible, can play the PP point, can pk.

Can he stick handle like Dats NO, can He score like Z NO, but who expects him to.

Please put into words, hockey terms, what it is he does that is so wrong?

He coasts, he does not go hard into the corners, he lets up when he should finish his checks.

In the montreal game, the puck was coming to the blue line, it was him against a montreal player the montreal was going hard and hustling for the puck, sammy was still closer and could have:

a: hustled himself to beat the montreal guy to the puck

b: let the montreal player pick up the puck and then checked him into the boards

c: took 2 strides and attempt to hit the puck out of the way

what does he do?

d: stop skating and halfheartedly place his stick in the general area of the puck in effect doing nothing

would you see dats or z doing that, or since we are so hellbent on defending sammy not being in the same upper echelon of those guys would kopecy or helm do that? or drake when he was here? or maltby or mac or anyone else on the team?

I rarely see him going to the corners and laying a hit to keep the puck in the play, he makes lots of errant passes, when he does pass that is, he takes too many bad angle shots, his aim is atrocious, he is quite possibly offside more then anyone else on the team, i have seen him hustle to beat an icing call 1 time this year.

As for bringing Cleary into this what was it, his 2nd game back after all that time off? give the guy a game or 2 to adjust.

And nfm what if i am a sportswriter and i did analyze ever second of evergame during every single one of Sammy's shifts? You don't know so you can drop the sarcasm. Look this is a discussion on a forum, I am trying to express my point of view without resorting to childish name calling and your momma jokes like so many people do so you don't have to bring out the sarcasm.

[kook_10 1,705]

I think what people notice most is that he has at times been prone to hesitation in pulling the trigger on the point and would consequently have shots blocked. I've cursed his name plenty of times for the outnumbered attacks he generated - that's the sort of thing people remember too. Also he has on occasion had passes intercepted because he made them standing still. These things happens less often these days, but sometimes the old bad habits rear their head. When he keeps his feet moving and shoots the puck he is a tremendous asset to the team. Lucky for us he has been doing that lately.

Edited December 2, 2008 by kook_10

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

He coasts, he does not go hard into the corners, he lets up when he should finish his checks.

In the montreal game, the puck was coming to the blue line, it was him against a montreal player the montreal was going hard and hustling for the puck, sammy was still closer and could have:

a: hustled himself to beat the montreal guy to the puck

b: let the montreal player pick up the puck and then checked him into the boards

c: took 2 strides and attempt to hit the puck out of the way

what does he do?

d: stop skating and halfheartedly place his stick in the general area of the puck in effect doing nothing

Not going hard into the corners....You just described the majority of the Red Wings so far this year. It bothers me too, but its far from just Sammy. Same goes for finishing checks.

In the montreal game, the puck was coming to the blue line, it was him against a montreal player the montreal was going hard and hustling for the puck, sammy was still closer and could have:

a: hustled himself to beat the montreal guy to the puck

b: let the montreal player pick up the puck and then checked him into the boards

c: took 2 strides and attempt to hit the puck out of the way

what does he do?

d: stop skating and halfheartedly place his stick in the general area of the puck in effect doing nothing

I bet if you seriously analyzed every single game this year you could find this situation take with almost every single Red Wing regardless of their talent level.

would you see dats or z doing that, or since we are so hellbent on defending sammy not being in the same upper echelon of those guys would kopecy or helm do that? or drake when he was here? or maltby or mac or anyone else on the team?

It depends if they felt they were out of the play or not or more importantly what part of their shift it was.

Yes, I've seen even the almighty Z, Dats and Hossa not skate hard at a potential up-for-grabs puck.....but they get a free pass, right?

I rarely see him going to the corners and laying a hit to keep the puck in the play, he makes lots of errant passes, when he does pass that is, he takes too many bad angle shots, his aim is atrocious, he is quite possibly offside more then anyone else on the team, i have seen him hustle to beat an icing call 1 time this year.

Fewer Red Wings than the majority do that either.

I rarely see him going to the corners and laying a hit to keep the puck in the play, he makes lots of errant passes, when he does pass that is, he takes too many bad angle shots, his aim is atrocious, he is quite possibly offside more then anyone else on the team, i have seen him hustle to beat an icing call 1 time this year.

So does every $1.2 million player.

I rarely see him going to the corners and laying a hit to keep the puck in the play, he makes lots of errant passes, when he does pass that is, he takes too many bad angle shots, his aim is atrocious, he is quite possibly offside more then anyone else on the team, i have seen him hustle to beat an icing call 1 time this year.

Largely cut down this year....you should've noticed that.

I rarely see him going to the corners and laying a hit to keep the puck in the play, he makes lots of errant passes, when he does pass that is, he takes too many bad angle shots, his aim is atrocious, he is quite possibly offside more then anyone else on the team, i have seen him hustle to beat an icing call 1 time this year.

It isn't great, but compared to who's?

I rarely see him going to the corners and laying a hit to keep the puck in the play, he makes lots of errant passes, when he does pass that is, he takes too many bad angle shots, his aim is atrocious, he is quite possibly offside more then anyone else on the team, i have seen him hustle to beat an icing call 1 time this year.

Prove it.

I rarely see him going to the corners and laying a hit to keep the puck in the play, he makes lots of errant passes, when he does pass that is, he takes too many bad angle shots, his aim is atrocious, he is quite possibly offside more then anyone else on the team, i have seen him hustle to beat an icing call 1 time this year.

He's an offenseman for Christ's sake!

And nfm what if i am a sportswriter and i did analyze ever second of evergame during every single one of Sammy's shifts? You don't know so you can drop the sarcasm. Look this is a discussion on a forum, I am trying to express my point of view without resorting to childish name calling and your momma jokes like so many people do so you don't have to bring out the sarcasm.

Who cares if you are a sportswriter. Plenty of them are biased.

As for my sarcasm....that's just the type of person I am sometimes, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong...just that we disagree. That's the point of a discussion board.