The misconception that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are equal

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

Datsyuk won the Selke. I understand. But Z won the Conn Smythe and in my opinion that's the most important trophy. Datsyuk a s great player and the most skilled on our team. But Z is a leader and a hard worker which proved to be as valuable last postseason.

Maybe Dats is better than Z but neither is more valuable to this team.

[lets go pavel 2]

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

Why can't we have this debate?

Do you want a debate or do you just want everyone to agree with you?

As others have said, they are both great but different players. There are things that Datsyuk does better, and there are things that Z does better, and these things can't all be quantified using statistics. You can build a compelling case for both, and in the end it boils down to personal opinion.

Datsyuk has been my favorite player for years, but prior to this season I probably would have given the slight edge to Z. This year Pavel has been more consistently excellent and really stepped into his own as a force every time he steps on the ice. If this year becomes the norm then I'll agree that Datsyuk is better, but I wouldn't be surprised if Z bounces back ...

[Dawgs 0]

Zetterberg needs to hit the weight room. Hes getting knocked off the puck too easily this season. He looks like he has been the most effected by the "Stanley Cup Hangover".

If you look at just this year its been a good year for Pavel and a down year for Henry. Making this call now is reactionary. Looking at the entire body of work, they are about equal. And, in several years, when we are looking back at thier careers, they will be remarkably similar.

[Kira 451]

What I have to take into consideration is the injury bug. Though Henrik has missed time both this year and last with back problems, Pasha played every game last year (the first year he's done that) and were it not for Buttman's ridiculous suspension (they didn't want to call it that, but we all know it was), I'm more than sure he would have played in every game this year too.

If you absolutely have to have one or the other, you know who I'd favor. One reason among many - he never leaves us with a dull moment.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Zetterberg has 5 GWGs in the playoffs, Datsyuk has 4.

Zetterberg has 52 points in 62 games

Datsyuk has 54 in 82.

Of course, thats if you include the 2002 playoff run, in which he played fourth line minutes, on one of the deepest teams in history. From 2003 to present:

Zetterberg 52 points, 62 games.

Datsyuk 48 points in 61 games.

Since the lockout:

Datsyuk, 45 games, 18 goals, 42 points.

Zetterberg, 46 games, 25 goals, 47 points.

They're nearly identical in the post season.

I find it humorous that you continually say that it is obvious and easy to see that Dats is much better but ALL the stats that you just put up (not stats some other poster found but the stats that you found and cite) to prove that Dats is better than Z ALL favor Zetterberg.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Dats is not as good as Z - some days when I watch Dats I think he is the best player on the ice that night and some days I think the same about Z. They are both amazing talents on both ends of the ice, with incredible work ethic night in and night out, desire to win and compete, and an ability to make those around them better. I don't really give a crap about who is better because they are both such and important and intrigral part of the team, I just find it humorous that you think there should be no discussion because Dats is obviously so much better and back that up with stats that are all in Z's favor.

The point is, line mates don't matter with Datsyuk, he performs either way. And on the road, Datsyuk is effectively the "Shutdown center" you constantly refer to. I use the last San Jose blow out for example. Datsyuk nullified Thornton-Marleau, Settigutchi while Zetterberg's line finished the night a -4 against San Jose's SECOND line.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=200...bx-skater-stats

Zetterberg's "Shutdown" line let in four goals while on the ice during that game. He didn't finish a minus because he took place in much of the scoring but the point remains. Datsyuk was matched against the first line, primarily Thornton and that line was silent all night. While Z's line was walked all over by Michalek and Clowe.

Almost as funny, you claim Z was a -4 in a San Jose / Detroit game this year and back that up with a link to a box score that shows Z was even strength - don't worry your proof is only 4 points off of what you claimed. Then you say he wasn't the -4 that you claimed he was only "because he took place in much of the scoring" (which doesn't really help your point anyway) which is completely false. Detroit had 5 goals Dats line had two, Flips line had one, and Z's line had two. Even if we believe your assertion that Z was a -4, but not really because he was even, but he was only even because he was on the ice for so much of the scoring (which kind of is the point of a plus/minus stat - you don't take the minus numbers and then not count the plus numbers I mean Z is 100% in face offs if you don't count the ones he lost) you are still -2 points off from what you claim. If you don't like Z fine, if you don't think he is as good as Dats fine, if you want to debate who is better fine, but please don't make crap up and then defended your made up crap, with an excuse that changes the the whole way a stat is kept, and then make up crap about when Z was on the ice so that your made up stat fits.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Clipped from the original post:

What else does Datsyuk need to do to actually take claim as the best forward on this team?

Win a Conn Smythe trophy.

Edited March 25, 2009 by rick zombo

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'm on record here that Datsyuk is the best forward in the league. Z's in the league last I checked.

But seriously, what's with the Zetterberg hate-on? Every time someone says something positive about him, you crap on it. The consensus agrees that Dats is better, there's absolutely no need to belittle Z's 3-on-5 play, his leadership, etc. He's still one of the top 15 or so forwards in the league. Epic fail by you.

I have been on record for years claiming Datsyuk is the better all around player than Zetterberg. In all honesty, near the end of last year and beginning of this year I started saying Datsyuk was the best forward in the league.

Now let me follow up that statement by saying Zetterberg is, IMO one of the top 6 or 7 forwards in the game. Hardly a slight.

Basically, there is nothing Zetterberg can do that Datsyuk cannot do equally as well. But IMO, there are things Datsyuk can do that nobody, not even Zetterberg can do.

Just watching the game last night, the move he put on Souray I believe. That was sick. Nobody even tries to make a move like that, essentially on one skate. That's a sick dangle.

But what impressed me even more was not long after that on the powerplay, Datsyuk's control over the puck in tight places....let's be honest here, nobody in the league is better able to maneuver the puck in tight spaces and be able to make as crisp and accurate a pass. Frankly, I don't know how he does it. He has this little drag move along the left hand boards, that when a defender on the PK closes on him, he's able to bring the puck out from his backhand to his forehand and get a pass around/thru the defender while the puck is literally in his feet. And the pass is flat, crisp, accurate and with enough zip that it gets there in time for the recipient to do something with it.

Alot of players can hold onto the puck. Alot of them can skate the puck at high speed. Alot of them can deke. Alot of them are amazing passers. But not all of them can do what Datsyuk does, which is essentially take the puck at high speed, deke around 2-3 defenders, hold onto the puck when nobody is open, make 2 or 3 other moves to create time and space, then fire off a crisp, accurate pass to an open teammate and then move his feet in order to get open again.

He's amazing. He's the most gifted, creative hockey player I have ever seen.

[Lollipop 8]

I am disinclined to compare Pav and Z because in some way, I feel like if I compared the two, I'd be displaying a lack of appreciation for one of them. Ever since they played on the 2 kids & Goat line with Brett Hull, I'll admit that I've often thought of them as one package...not interchangable, but attached. I like when they do well together, and when they aren't on the same line, I feel agitated, and feel like Babs is separating a really good team. I think a lot of the tendency to fit them into the same category and make them "equal" comes from the aesthetic value that comes from having them together.

[DatsMyWings13 4]

I've always thought of Datsyuk as the better player but than I'd be lying if I didn't admit I have some personal bias thrown in there.

To me Datsyuk will always be the better overall player but not by much. We are truly gifted to be watching these two players in their prime!

[Phazon 24]

dear jeff bridges,

who do you think were better last playoffs? Zetterberg had more goals, he had more points and the NHL awarded him the conn smythe. (rightfully so)

So Z isnt good when it matters?

[BigWinston 15]

They're totally different players.

Think of Datsyuk as a Ferrari and Z as more of a Aston Martin. Both fantastic cars, but for different reasons. Together though, its one nice garage.

I would go on more, but .... lunch break over

[Inultus 12]

Datsyuk is better. That is all.

[TonyDanza 0]

dear jeff bridges,

who do you think were better last playoffs? Zetterberg had more goals, he had more points and the NHL awarded him the conn smythe. (rightfully so)

So Z isnt good when it matters?

You're looking at a 23 game sample size while im comparing their careers since 2003. Zetterberg wouldn't have scored as much playing on the second line without Datsyuk, the various times they have been separated proves as much.

And who said anything about him not being good when it matters? Again, thats the problem with this messageboard. If this was Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk it wouldn't be a problem. Don't attack the golden boy, even though every meaningfull statistic backs up my claim.

Datsyuk has led this team in scoring since 2004.... how many players in Red Wings history can say they did that for so many years? Oh and he won a Selke while nearly hitting 100 points, a claim Zetterberg will never have.

The Conn Smythe is meaningless, it could have easily gone to Franzen, Datsyuk or Lidstrom. Just as in 2002 it easily could have gone to Fedorov or Hasek.

Using one playoff run to determine which player is better is a mistake. But of course, apparently using anything before last year is a problem also. If what I am lead to believe is true its that Zetterberg has consistently put up 95 points his entire career...

What will the excuse be next season if the Twins aren't reunited? His bad back? His back is fine.....

What happens when Datsyuk turns Franzen into a 50 goal scorer? Nothing, Datsyuk is leaching talent from Franzen and Zetterberg, even though hes on a different line.

The love affair continues with the swedes

[TonyDanza 0]

I think the reason it's not discussed is the same reason no-one was trashing Datsyuk in the playoffs when Hank outplayed him. Most Wings fans don't hate Zetterberg or Datsyuk. They're content with the way they're playing and just because Datsyuk is playing exceptionally well this season, doesn't create a need to trash Zetterberg because he hasn't been as good.

I gotta say, each one of your posts have had the whiniest tone from the first syllable to last. I doubt you'll be around much longer anyway because you'll soon go back to your normal account, whichever one that may be. You're definitely not a new poster, that's for sure.

Im not trashing Zetterberg, im saying hes the second best forward on the best team in the league.... and one of the top ten forwards in the league. Thats trashing?

And yes, Datsyuk's short comings in the playoffs has been brought up consistently during the life of this messageboard. The 05-06 Edmonton series was the turning point, Datsyuk's injured, still played but doesn't produce, Zetterberg is fully healthy and scores 6 goals in 6 games.

06/07 - Datsyuk outscored Zetterberg in the playoffs, scoring more goals but Anahiem went on to win the series, even after Datsyuk scored two goals in the final five minutes in an attempt to tie the game and take it to game 7.

07/08 - Zetterberg outscores Datsyuk by 4 points, 3 goals. Wings win cup, Z wins Smythe.

The only difference between either year is the fact that the team didn't have Franzen going nuts and breaking a goal scoring record on the second line.

So yes, I don't see how Zetterberg has been miles ahead of Datsyuk in the playoffs.

And if the excuse is that Z saves it for the playoffs then thats a problem. This team doesn't make it to the playoffs unless someone is playing hard during the regular season. Seems to be a common theme though, Kronwall doesn't lay a hit during the regular season either, must be "saving it" for the big games.

[lets go pavel 2]

Im not trashing Zetterberg, im saying hes the second best forward on the best team in the league.... and one of the top ten forwards in the league. Thats trashing?

And yes, Datsyuk's short comings in the playoffs has been brought up consistently during the life of this messageboard. The 05-06 Edmonton series was the turning point, Datsyuk's injured, still played but doesn't produce, Zetterberg is fully healthy and scores 6 goals in 6 games.

06/07 - Datsyuk outscored Zetterberg in the playoffs, scoring more goals but Anahiem went on to win the series, even after Datsyuk scored two goals in the final five minutes in an attempt to tie the game and take it to game 7.

07/08 - Zetterberg outscores Datsyuk by 4 points, 3 goals. Wings win cup, Z wins Smythe.

The only difference between either year is the fact that the team didn't have Franzen going nuts and breaking a goal scoring record on the second line.

So yes, I don't see how Zetterberg has been miles ahead of Datsyuk in the playoffs.

And if the excuse is that Z saves it for the playoffs then thats a problem. This team doesn't make it to the playoffs unless someone is playing hard during the regular season. Seems to be a common theme though, Kronwall doesn't lay a hit during the regular season either, must be "saving it" for the big games.

Jeff Bridges, Tony Danza ... who's next, Bela Lugosi? I want to know what Hollywood has against Hank ...

[Guest mindfly]

Zetterberg has been a bit of a disappointmen this year.. I never get excited when he has the puck and cross their blueline cause 90% of the times nothing will happen... when datsyuk does the same he always gets something out of it and he can do the amazing things that zetterberg can't... datsyuk got more raw skills

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Who cares? They are both great hockey players and they both play for the Red Wings.

That's more than enough for me.

[jvxp 0]

How many more seasons will it take before this belief is squashed? The stats and tape show that Datsyuk consistantly can play with anyone on the team and put up 85+ points. Z's biggest career season came while playing with Datsyuk last season.

This is mainly in reaction to Babcock calling Datsyuk the "Best forward in the game".

What else does Datsyuk need to do to actually take claim as the best forward on this team? It seems like every comparison thread has Datsyuk or Zetterberg as equal and its simply not the case. They get the same minutes, Zetterberg has better linemates and hes 20 points behind Datsyuk.

In before eva or others say "Zetterberg is better defensively, the Selke is a sham" and somehow Zetterberg's unrecognized defense somehow puts him on the same level as Datsyuk.

In all honesty, Datsyuk is doing nothing but getting better while Z seems to have hit his career potential without being paired with Datsyuk. A Selke finalist, 75 point player is nothing to put down but its clearly not the same as a 100 point Selke season.

Can we all just admit that Zetterberg's game is lifted by playing with Datsyuk?

You don't have to convince me. I think Datsyuk is the best player on the wings and has been for years.

[TonyDanza 0]

You don't have to convince me. I think Datsyuk is the best player on the wings and has been for years.

Im not trying to convince anyone...

I brought this up to show the ridiculous arguments presented to lift up Zetterberg, even though Datsyuk has clearly been the better player since the beginning of their careers.

This isn't apples and oranges, its the easiest comparison ever. If Yzerman and Fedorov both started playing in 1992, it would be pretty similar. Everyone acts as if Yzerman was the reason why this team won cups but Fedorov was the guy leading the team in scoring during the playoffs...

Leadership is overrated.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

tony danza = jeff bridges?

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Leadership is overrated.

huh?

datsyuk's my favorite player, and i've long said he's the better player between he and zetterberg. up until this years it's been a reasonable debate. but dats has clearly been the best player on the team this year, while zetterberg has fallen to third or possibly fourth. i'm not sure what happened to zetterberg. for those saying zetterberg is better defensively, dats has a 20 point edge in +/- and again leads the team in that regard (tied for second in the league). it's not a definitive stat, but still, a 20 point discrepancy garners attention. not to mention datsyuk is a +35 on a team that's been lousy defensively this year by its standards. datsyuk is a great defensive player. i'm not going to say he's definitely better defensively than zetterberg, but it's debatable. their styles of defense are dissimilar.

offensively, there's no debate (this year). zetterberg never feels like a threat to score anymore. i'm not sure if it's his back, or he's being defended tighter after a break-out season and playoffs last year, or what, but he's not creating much at all this year. most every time he enters the zone he loses the puck. he's turned into a right place right time kind of guy instead of creating his own offense, which is something that datsyuk does as well as anybody in the league. datsyuk's so dangerous because he creates his own offense. that's why he can play with anybody and that's why he makes anybody playing with him better. zetterberg works much better with datsyuk creating the offense and zetterberg finishing the play. when he's relied on solely to create the offense, he doesn't seem to shine as brightly. my two cents.

[Electrophile 3,554]

tony danza = jeff bridges?

That would appear to be what's going on here.

Where's Scott Baio, Willie Aames and Bronson Pinchot? Their opinions on this matter are greatly needed.

[Phazon 24]

I never understood why zetterberg is hated on these boards. Why do we have to have a 5 pages rantings that dats is better? It really sounds like Z is playing on a different team and not a red wing for life.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Phazon

[mjlegend 155]

Jeff Bridges was being very un-dude in this thread.

[Electrophile 3,554]

I never understood why zetterberg is hated on these boards. Why do we have to have a 5 pages rantings that dats is better?

Because there are some fans who aren't happy unless they can pit one player against another. See: the Goalie Wars.