Aaron Downey and Darren McCarty will not be offered contracts

[Guest micah]

Mac is like Cheli, too old. Love Mac, but he won't help this team more than other players that the Wings can get. Downey, well, few things to say besides, "duh". Wings didn't need him last season and wouldn't need him this season either. Glad Kenny Holland wasn't and still isn't wanking to an enforcer-loving pipe dream some here are. Getting any player who can fight must mean they play the Wings skill/grind game first and foremost, regardless of salary.

What roles do you suppose Kenny had in mind for Norton and Downey in the first place? Bootland? Serious question.

Edited July 1, 2009 by micah

[Guest micah]

Yea, if only we had the grit this year that we had in '08.........Man was that team way different than this one!!

Who is this year's Downey? Who is this year's Drake?

[Guest Shoreline]

What roles do you suppose Kenny had in mind for Norton and Downey in the first place? Bootland? Serious question.

I'm not terribly worried about a theoretical question such as that. How much were they used is the question, particularly during crunch time. The Wings were using their 4th liners for rather meaningful minutes deep in the playoffs. I don't see that happening with a guy like Colton Orr. Again, this is how things with the Wings have played out, not the if's and but's that speculation-whores love to debate.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Shoreline

[Guest micah]

I'm not terribly worried about a theoretical question such as that. How much were they used is the question, particularly during crunch time. The Wings were using their 4th liners for rather meaningful minutes deep in the playoffs. I don't see that happening with a guy like Colton Orr. Again, this is how things with the Wings have played out, not the if's and but's that speculation-whores love to debate.

So you have no answer? I figured as much.

You said "Getting any player who can fight must mean they play the Wings skill/grind game first and foremost, regardless of salary."

The Wings under Holland brought in Norton, Bootland, and Downey. Either you're wrong in your assesment of Ken Holland or Ken Holland for some reason thought that those 3 guys could "play the Wings skill/grind game".

[Guest Shoreline]

So you have no answer? I figured as much.

You said "Getting any player who can fight must mean they play the Wings skill/grind game first and foremost, regardless of salary."

The Wings under Holland brought in Norton, Bootland, and Downey. Either you're wrong in your assesment of Ken Holland or Ken Holland for some reason thought that those 3 guys could "play the Wings skill/grind game".

Their tenure was rather short lived and they weren't utilized during times many other 4th liners the Wings have had playing in the last few seasons have. That shows Kenny is interested in hard-nosed 4th liners, likely more skill, not enforcers, not fighters.

Again, if you want to go have a wonderful fap in the clouds about theoretical questions you won't find me playing along. I don't care about that. I accept this team for what it is. No need for outlandish questions like that.

[soonboomer 31]

Who is this year's Downey? Who is this year's Drake?

Downey didn't play in the playoffs last year, did he? And Drake, as valuable as he was last year, contributed as much if not in the intangible department than he did on the ice. I'd prefer to think injuries and the compacted playoff schedule had more to do with losing the SCF this year than the Wings "lack of grit".

[Guest micah]

Their tenure was rather short lived and they weren't utilized during times many other 4th liners the Wings have had playing in the last few seasons have. That shows Kenny is interested in hard-nosed 4th liners, likely more skill, not enforcers, not fighters.

Again, if you want to go have a wonderful fap in the clouds about theoretical questions you won't find me playing along. I don't care about that. I accept this team for what it is. No need for outlandish questions like that.

"Why were these 3 players sought out and signed by Ken Holland?" is an "outlandish" question on a Red Wings board? Really?

I think you just don't like admitting that you have no idea.

[Guest Shoreline]

"Why were these 3 players sought out and signed by Ken Holland?" is an "outlandish" question on a Red Wings board? Really?

I think you just don't like admitting that you have no idea.

Come down from fappy idealism land. You're worried about what Kenny was thinking when Kenny got these players some years back. You're not worrying at all about the results of them being here, which was pretty much nothing on their ends, hence why their stay was short lived and comparable players have not been sought out -- wonder why that is. Somehow I have no idea even though I'm focused on results and you're overly focused about thoughts. I wonder what Kenny was thinking when he got Ulf? Gee, I guess that means the Wings are looking for a chippy defenseman.

Let's start thinking sensibly.

[LoveMyWings8 0]

Ahh, the many years Mac spent with us.

He was a household name, growing up.

I'ma miss him!!!

Best of luck, Mac!!

[Guest Shoreline]

Ahh, the many years Mac spent with us.

He was a household name, growing up.

I'ma miss him!!!

Best of luck, Mac!!

I really hope Mac either stays in GR or with the team in some other way.

[HenryMalredo 2]

Who is this year's Downey? Who is this year's Drake?

Downey was irrelevant to the Wings winning a cup in 2008. Drake was used more as a tenacious grinder than an enforcer.

[Guest micah]

Downey didn't play in the playoffs last year, did he?

No. Darren McCarty did a bit though. Downey did play a fair portion of the reg season.

And Drake, as valuable as he was last year, contributed as much if not in the intangible department than he did on the ice.

I agree, just like Downey did. Downey was there in the regular season to give everything he could, and he had a great attitude about sitting out the playoffs. He's a role player. His role isn't to score in the playoffs, it's to sweat beads and remind other players that they're damn lucky to have the jobs they do, that there are people out there who will play hard every single s***f and be thankful for every single shift, players who will do absolutely anything they can that team asks from them, whether that's risking a broken head or sitting in Grand Rapids. That's an important role. Is it as important as Dats' role? No. That's why he didn't make Dats' $.

I'd prefer to think injuries and the compacted playoff schedule had more to do with losing the SCF this year than the Wings "lack of grit".

I don't prefer to think anything. I don't know if the example of a guy who actuallty bothered to play hard when the rest of the team wasn't in the reg season (according to Babs) would have changed anything in the postseason. Maybe playing alongside a guy who made his living playing through broken noses, hands, ribs and whatnot without complaint would have inspired guys like Dats and Lids to have played through there pain better than they did. Maybe not. I don't know. I do know that little to nothing is risked by dressing a toughguy in the regular season. It's cheap, it wouldn't cost us many (perhaps not any) games, and it might provide those oh-so-valuable intangiables.

[Guest micah]

Come down from fappy idealism land. You're worried about what Kenny was thinking when Kenny got these players some years back. You're not worrying at all about the results of them being here, which was pretty much nothing on their ends, hence why their stay was short lived and comparable players have not been sought out -- wonder why that is. Somehow I have no idea even though I'm focused on results and you're overly focused about thoughts. I wonder what Kenny was thinking when he got Ulf? Gee, I guess that means the Wings are looking for a chippy defenseman.

Let's start thinking sensibly.

"not sought out".

It seems Colton Orr was sought out - just not at double what Downey or Mac were making.

What isn't "sensible" about asking you to back up your statement that You say that Kenny has no use for tallentless fighters, yet he occasionally signs tallentless fighters.

This is hard for you, because you are wrong, and you likely know you are wrong. It's okay to be wrong.

"Getting any player who can fight must mean they play the Wings skill/grind game first and foremost, regardless of salary."

Colton Orr cannot play the Wings style of game, and yet reports are that salary is what stood between him and the winged wheel.

[Guest Shoreline]

"not sought out".

It seems Colton Orr was sought out - just not at double what Downey or Mac were making.

What isn't "sensible" about asking you to back up your statement that You say that Kenny has no use for tallentless fighters, yet he occasionally signs tallentless fighters.

This is hard for you, because you are wrong, and you likely know you are wrong. It's okay to be wrong.

"Getting any player who can fight must mean they play the Wings skill/grind game first and foremost, regardless of salary."

Colton Orr cannot play the Wings style of game, and yet reports are that salary is what stood between him and the winged wheel.

If Colton Orr takes peanuts, then like most NHLers that would normally not be under consideration (regardless of being a fighter or not), he suddenly sounds viable since there's a lot less of a risk financially if he gets scratched/sent down/exposed. You aren't capable of thinking sensibly at all and every post you make about enforcers proves it, regardless of how often you try to cite I'm wrong.

Again, Colton Orr would NOT ever be used in crunch time for the Red Wings. He wouldn't be used in the playoffs at all, especially, if there were injuries left and right, during the 3rd or OT's. There's a reason why the players you cite were not played very much with the Wings and were not with the team for long at all. It's not what the Wings need, which explains why they have not actually signed/played them as mentioned. Maybe if you just keep repeating I'm wrong you might convince yourself your embellished sense of enthusiasm regarding an enforcer for this team, and every humorous out-in-left-field way you try to justify it with (laughably the not "backing it up" which is exactly the opposite of what was done), sounds in the slightest bit sensible.

You keep having a good ol' tug to thoughts, I'll worry about what's actually done.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Shoreline

[uk_redwing 495]

Not this again...

[Guest Shoreline]

Not this again...

Epic.

[soonboomer 31]

No. Darren McCarty did a bit though. Downey did play a fair portion of the reg season.

I agree, just like Downey did. Downey was there in the regular season to give everything he could, and he had a great attitude about sitting out the playoffs. He's a role player. His role isn't to score in the playoffs, it's to sweat beads and remind other players that they're damn lucky to have the jobs they do, that there are people out there who will play hard every single s***f and be thankful for every single shift, players who will do absolutely anything they can that team asks from them, whether that's risking a broken head or sitting in Grand Rapids. That's an important role. Is it as important as Dats' role? No. That's why he didn't make Dats' $.

I don't prefer to think anything. I don't know if the example of a guy who actuallty bothered to play hard when the rest of the team wasn't in the reg season (according to Babs) would have changed anything in the postseason. Maybe playing alongside a guy who made his living playing through broken noses, hands, ribs and whatnot without complaint would have inspired guys like Dats and Lids to have played through there pain better than they did. Maybe not. I don't know. I do know that little to nothing is risked by dressing a toughguy in the regular season. It's cheap, it wouldn't cost us many (perhaps not any) games, and it might provide those oh-so-valuable intangiables.

That pretty much says it all. I've had my differences with Shoreline in the past, but I have to agree with him that you're clueless about reality, and, living in the "what ifs" and "what was he thinking" scenarios is utter nonsense.

[Guest micah]

This:

If Colton Orr takes peanuts, then like most NHLers that would normally not be under consideration (regardless of being a fighter or not), he suddenly sounds viable since there's a lot less of a risk financially if he gets scratched/sent down/exposed. You aren't capable of thinking sensibly at all and every post you make about enforcers proves it, regardless of how often you try to cite I'm wrong.

is in direct contradiction to this:

"Getting any player who can fight must mean they play the Wings skill/grind game first and foremost, regardless of salary."

You state that a tough guy who can't play won't be considered regardless of salary, then you state that a tough guy who can't play will be considered for the right price.

Again, Colton Orr would NOT ever be used in crunch time for the Red Wings.

who suggested otherwise? I suspect he would have been used in a regular season role similar to that of current stanley Cup Champion Eric Godard.

[Guest Shoreline]

I gotta say, micah, it was pretty funny. You go for the most ambiguous, open-to-interpretation methods of trying to justify your beliefs that the Wings need an enforcer you'll stoop to any level to try and make it seem reasonable. For instance, the Wings pursued Colton Orr! Ok, so did Kenny ask how much and things were and when Orr wanted too much he backed off right away? Possible scenario. Nonetheless, 100% ambiguous, 100% bulls*** trying to use to try to show that this team wants/needs him.

Kenny knows how to get things done and he has enough cap room to grab a friggen enforcer if he wants one. He would make it known he wants one, and would get it. We're not talking about the complication of a guy like Hossa or Heatley. But no, let's go way off in left field while micah tries and use highly questionable methods of rationalizing his religious-like belief that the Wings need an enforcer. Win or lose, the record is broken.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Shoreline

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

NO DOWNEY? OMG WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE.

[Guest micah]

I gotta say, micah, it was pretty funny. You go for the most ambiguous, open-to-interpretation methods of trying to justify your beliefs that the Wings need an enforcer you'll stoop to any level to try and make it seem reasonable. For instance, the Wings pursued Colton Orr! Ok, so did Kenny ask how much and things were and when Orr wanted too much he backed off right away? Possible scenario. Nonetheless, 100% ambiguous, 100% bulls*** trying to use to try to show that this team wants/needs him.

Kenny knows how to get things done and he has enough cap room to grab a friggen enforcer if he wants one. He would make it known he wants one, and would get it. We're not talking about the complication of a guy like Hossa or Heatley. But no, let's go way off in left field while micah tries and use highly questionable methods of rationalizing his religious-like belief that the Wings need an enforcer. Win or lose, the record is broken.

You're wrong again. I don't believe that the Wings want or need an enforcer. They can win just fine without one. I want them to get a tough guy because I like watching tough guys play, especially in November when the rest of the team isn't bothering to play hard anyway. I also don't believe that signing an enforcer dressing and playing him in the regular season will hurt our chances of winning the Cup at all. It worked for us before, it worked for Pittsburgh this year. While I don't believe downey or Godard or Parros were key to their teams' championships, they certainly didn't get in the way of their teams winning the cup. While I do not subscribe to the theory that playing a toughguy in the reg season inspires skilled guys to play a bit harder in the postseason, I'm open to the idea.

[Guest Shoreline]

You're wrong again. I don't believe that the Wings want or need an enforcer. They can win just fine without one. I want them to get a tough guy because I like watching tough guys play, especially in November when the rest of the team isn't bothering to play hard anyway. I also don't believe that signing an enforcer dressing and playing him in the regular season will hurt our chances of winning the Cup at all. It worked for us before, it worked for Pittsburgh this year. While I don't believe downey or Godard or Parros were key to their teams' championships, they certainly didn't get in the way of their teams winning the cup. While I do not subscribe to the theory that playing a toughguy in the reg season inspires skilled guys to play a bit harder in the postseason, I'm open to the idea.

If it was merely you enjoying watching enforcers play you wouldn't be debating about how much this team needs or is actively/aggressively pursuing one. You then went on to suggest, in the same post, that it worked for other teams, as if having an enforcer on the bench is like having the hand of fate. Incorrect. Those teams that won with an enforcer present did so without their enforcer doing much, if any at all, enforcing. Some teams can make it work with an enforcer. This team obviously doesn't want/need it. If Kenny changes his mind I support his decisions 100%, since he knows what he's doing, but the rationales you give as some sort of predicate to this team wanting or needing one, which is best judged by action moving toward an enforcer (rather than your choice of speculation from years ago and making s*** up) is what's really in need of some backing up. This was the same stuff heard last season too, and the season before that, and the season before that.

Lemaire best described the talent Boogaard can bring. Not the fact that he can fight. Certainly not the fact that he might score a goal or two during the season. It's the fact that they attract attention, and can be a distraction to the opposing team. Opposing teams pay attention to where he is on the ice, and that can free up some room for teammates to put the puck in the net. Some teams can make that work, and it was especially prevalent in the era where obstruction, holding up, late hits, high elbows, and that type of thing was more acceptable, and especially when cheap s*** was tolerated (hence why Gretz needed bodyguards early on). Today, however, far more penalties (and costly ones at that) are called on enforcers because often times they are reckless, and because enforcing does not help win games, they are also mostly useless and only for entertainment's sake.

That's why Kenny would much rather utilize a roster space for a player that would fit in this system, not, as TSN iterated countless times today, take a risk on an unknown, and even more specifically, go fishing for an unknown and an enforcer, when the Wings have a 3rd and 4th line which are capable of scoring, which was proven these last playoffs. TSN's analysis of the Wings and their system of finding players was spot on. Then we can get into the salary commanded, and while fighting would be decent as a secondary thing, injuries to Wings fighters of late haven't exactly been inspirational to encourage this team to fight. They would need to be skill first, and even if they're a fighter, like any other fighters that joined this team of recent years, they'd play the Wings system first and foremost, and only get into select few fights. This happened when Drake joined this team. This is what you should be paying attention to, besides teams merely having a goon who can just fight on the roster like some sort of lucky relic that helps wins cups when that's not true at all.

[pokemonbreeder18 6]

Sad to say this is the end for both of them....I really dont think anyone will be interested to sign them.