Hossa: "Its great to be in a hockey town."

[Guest micah]

What were the Hawks numbers when their teams sucked?

I don't know, but they weren't pretty - and that's exactly my point. Detroit, Chicago, whatever. Their fans show up when these teams are winning and that's it. Toronto, now that's a hockey town. The team might suck, but you wouldn't know it by ticket sales.

Yes, I know how big Toronto and Detroit and Chicago are. Yes. I know how many other professional teams each city has. Yes, I know that white flight coupled with mismanaged industry and union greed has made Detroit uninhabitable - but none of that is what I'm talking about. What city has the greatest enthusiasm for hockey? What team has the most loyal fans (not to be confused with fair wheather fans). I don't think either is Detroit.

I do NOT mean to diss the Wings or their fans. Detroit has much to be prowd of in their Wings. Very much. Regardless, stating that Detroit Red Wings fans are loyal is either a deliberate lie or it is an untruth caused by ignorance.

[stormboy 47]

And yet another attack from a guy that thinks Hawks GM... wait former GM Dale Tallon, is a genius. Are you still mad at me because I put you in your place last time we talked? Get over it.

As I had mentioned before, I think its interesting that a month after he leaves HOCKEYTOWN, he says its great to be in a "hockey town". Its a bad choice of words, just like last year. And you would think after all the crap he went through with the media over the past year, he would choose he words more carefully. He didn't say that after he left Atlanta or Pittsburgh, he says it after he leaves Detroit which is called Hockeytown by everyone.

I'm not disputing that Chicago is a great "hockey town". Its an original six city, it better be. I think Hossa's choice of words are bad. That's pretty much all I was trying to point out in this post.

he said he went to a hockey town. you just said chicago is a hockey town. sounds like you and hossa agree. so stfu and gear up for next season, in which we will hopefully beat hossa's ass each time we play him. not out of bitterness towards him, mind you, but because he now plays for a team that isn't our beloved red wings.

also, 99% of the posts in this thread still lead me to believe that detroit has intelligent, rational fans. thanks for not being dicks, like the pens fans.

Edited July 21, 2009 by stormboy

[Doc Holiday 0]

I don't know, but they weren't pretty - and that's exactly my point. Detroit, Chicago, whatever. Their fans show up when these teams are winning and that's it. Toronto, now that's a hockey town. The team might suck, but you wouldn't know it by ticket sales.

They are a canadian team. Hockey in Canada is like Football in the US. Look at how the Lions have done ticket wise considering their horrible numbers.

When American teams in the NHL suffer, their numbers will not keep up.

(Btw I am led to believe the entire lower bowl is filled with corporate junkies who really don't understand the game. I've spoken to a few Toronto natives who are pissed they can't buy tickets because assholes like them feel the need to purchase lower bowl seats)

Yes, I know how big Toronto and Detroit and Chicago are. Yes. I know how many other professional teams each city has. Yes, I know that white flight coupled with mismanaged industry and union greed has made Detroit uninhabitable - but none of that is what I'm talking about. What city has the greatest enthusiasm for hockey? What team has the most loyal fans (not to be confused with fair wheather fans). I don't think either is Detroit.

I do NOT mean to diss the Wings or their fans. Detroit has much to be prowd of in their Wings. Very much. Regardless, stating that Detroit Red Wings fans are loyal is either a deliberate lie or it is an untruth caused by ignorance.

That's a mighty big blanket you are spreading. Do you mean the majority here? Also that wasn't my point. I believe that it is unfair to consider the Joe a "horrible place to play at" considering Detroit's record and that "the fans don't cheer." I thought Sakore (sp?) was wrong in stating that Chicago was a much better place to play (or what seemed in his words, an actual place to play unlike the "library of the joe"). Right now, yeah they have a lot of enthusiastic fans. But Detroit isn't some bottom feeding hockey town here.

Edited July 21, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[stormboy 47]

I don't know, but they weren't pretty - and that's exactly my point. Detroit, Chicago, whatever. Their fans show up when these teams are winning and that's it. Toronto, now that's a hockey town. The team might suck, but you wouldn't know it by ticket sales.

Yes, I know how big Toronto and Detroit and Chicago are. Yes. I know how many other professional teams each city has. Yes, I know that white flight coupled with mismanaged industry and union greed has made Detroit uninhabitable - but none of that is what I'm talking about. What city has the greatest enthusiasm for hockey? What team has the most loyal fans (not to be confused with fair wheather fans). I don't think either is Detroit.

I do NOT mean to diss the Wings or their fans. Detroit has much to be prowd of in their Wings. Very much. Regardless, stating that Detroit Red Wings fans are loyal is either a deliberate lie or it is an untruth caused by ignorance.

i only know you a little bit from your posts, but it seems like you have a pretty negative outlook, generally. i know you said that you don't mean to diss wings fans, but then you actually kinda dissed them. so...i don't know. there's a big part of me that wants to say:

"you'll please forgive detroiters if sports isn't the biggest thing on their minds right now. our city continues to fall apart. our major industry has largely become the unprofitable laughing-stock of the country, and is now being managed by the government, which is inherently inefficient no matter which party is in power. detroit is seen as the 'murder capital of the united states,' which expelles industry (and its subsidiary economic structures) and compounds ignorant racism."

and yes, as you said, none of this is what you are "talking about." but i wonder, sir, if you realize that "sports" and "real life" are sometimes actually intertwined. do you realize, sir, that detroit has triple the national unemployment rate? these things affect people's "enthusiasm for hockey" and "loyalty to sports." i think that detroit and michigan in general are doing pretty goddam good despite the things that have afflicted them. i'm sorry if i came off like a *****, which i probably did, but you simply can not pretend like real life and dedication to a game are not directly interfaced.

[stormboy 47]

They are a canadian team. Hockey in Canada is like Football in the US. Look at how the Lions have done ticket wise considering their horrible numbers.

you're absolutely right, sir. united statesians love their football, and will buy tickets no matter what. it's the same with hockey in canada. it's just...different.

Right now, yeah they [chicago] have a lot of enthusiastic fans. But Detroit isn't some bottom feeding hockey town here.

it also helps that chicago is finally on the upswing, while detroit has made the playoffs for over 9000-plus years in a row. imagine how ape-s*** the lions' crowds will be going if they actually win a few games this year? wings fans expect, at the very least -- the very least, mind you -- superiority. if you're used to expecting crappy play, and are suddenly surprised by fair- or good-level play, fans are going to be even more ecstatic. if chicago now verges on "great," of course their fans are going to go crazy. never mind that while we've seen our team win, what, four cups, they've seen no cups, much less little playoff performance. of course they're going to be going crazy right now.

[Guest micah]

i only know you a little bit from your posts, but it seems like you have a pretty negative outlook, generally. i know you said that you don't mean to diss wings fans, but then you actually kinda dissed them. so...i don't know. there's a big part of me that wants to say:

"you'll please forgive detroiters if sports isn't the biggest thing on their minds right now. our city continues to fall apart. our major industry has largely become the unprofitable laughing-stock of the country, and is now being managed by the government, which is inherently inefficient no matter which party is in power. detroit is seen as the 'murder capital of the united states,' which expelles industry (and its subsidiary economic structures) and compounds ignorant racism."

and yes, as you said, none of this is what you are "talking about." but i wonder, sir, if you realize that "sports" and "real life" are sometimes actually intertwined. do you realize, sir, that detroit has triple the national unemployment rate? these things affect people's "enthusiasm for hockey" and "loyalty to sports." i think that detroit and michigan in general are doing pretty goddam good despite the things that have afflicted them. i'm sorry if i came off like a *****, which i probably did, but you simply can not pretend like real life and dedication to a game are not directly interfaced.

Fair points all, but I wasn't really referring to modern day Red Wings fans in that post. I was really addressing the fact that when the team sucked, tickets didn't sell. I think it's actually quite remarkable that the Wings sell so well in today's market. My point is not that today's Wings fans are not good fans today, my point is that if we draw from history, we have to conclude that wings fans would not be filling the Joe routinely if the team starts sucking again. Too many people think that Wings fans are automatically not "fair wheather fans" like the fans in Chicago are. They are wrong. Detroit has as high a percentage of fair weather fans as anyone, but we haven't seen a poor-weather Red Wings team in like 20 years.

As far as hockey being bigger in Canada than it is in the US....yes, yes it is. That is something that should come into the conversation when comparing Detroit and Toronto, but not Detroit and Chicago. In my estimation, Chicago and Detroit fans aren't all that different. Both show up and cheer when the team is winning, both stay home and watch Dancing With the Stars when they aren't.

[stormboy 47]

Fair points all, but I wasn't really referring to modern day Red Wings fans in that post. I was really addressing the fact that when the team sucked, tickets didn't sell. I think it's actually quite remarkable that the Wings sell so well in today's market. My point is not that today's Wings fans are not good fans today, my point is that if we draw from history, we have to conclude that wings fans would not be filling the Joe routinely if the team starts sucking again. Too many people think that Wings fans are automatically not "fair wheather fans" like the fans in Chicago are. They are wrong. Detroit has as high a percentage of fair weather fans as anyone, but we haven't seen a poor-weather Red Wings team in like 20 years.

As far as hockey being bigger in Canada than it is in the US....yes, yes it is. That is something that should come into the conversation when comparing Detroit and Toronto, but not Detroit and Chicago. In my estimation, Chicago and Detroit fans aren't all that different. Both show up and cheer when the team is winning, both stay home and watch Dancing With the Stars when they aren't.

fair point. i assume the wings won't be a top-two seed this season, and may not win the division, though they will almost certainly make the playoffs. but if things continue to go downhill for us (they have certainly gone "downhill" this year as compared to last year) and our divisional opponents continue to get better, i could see us not making the playoffs in a few years. the wings have an epic playoff dynasty going right now, but is NOT going to last forever--the question is only when it will end. at that point, i could see attendance drop off, especially if economic conditions continue.

i guess for me, at this point, any benefit of the doubt to the people of detroit/michigan and any bit of hope will be given to them. as trite as it sounds, we need all the positivity we can get around here right now.

so if everything in the wings organization isn't perfect, as long as it's pretty damn good, which it is, i'm going to put that in the win column for our area. i don't know if you're from here or not, but to me, a big part of being a wings fan is being a fan of the area i come from. and that means a lot, at least to me.

[Guest micah]

i guess for me, at this point, any benefit of the doubt to the people of detroit/michigan and any bit of hope will be given to them. as trite as it sounds, we need all the positivity we can get around here right now.

so if everything in the wings organization isn't perfect, as long as it's pretty damn good, which it is, i'm going to put that in the win column for our area. i don't know if you're from here or not, but to me, a big part of being a wings fan is being a fan of the area i come from. and that means a lot, at least to me.

I'm not from Detroit, I'm from Wisconsin. We don't even have an NHL team. I find no fault in the things you've said above - I wish Detroit (the city and it's people) nothing but the best. I applaud you for embracing the good and having pride in your city. I get concerned that some (not you) take that attitude a too far, and instead of just taking pride in the great things about Detroit (or the Red Wings), they start to believe that everything about the Red Wings and their fans is different and better than it is elsewhere. Civic pride, and even pride in your favorite soprts team is good - but fantasy isn't.

FWIW, I could use a new truck. Rather than considering an import, I'm going to wait for Detroit to come around and build one that get's markedly better milage than my 1993 300cid 6 cyl F-150. I'm pulling for y'all.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Fair points all, but I wasn't really referring to modern day Red Wings fans in that post. I was really addressing the fact that when the team sucked, tickets didn't sell. I think it's actually quite remarkable that the Wings sell so well in today's market. My point is not that today's Wings fans are not good fans today, my point is that if we draw from history, we have to conclude that wings fans would not be filling the Joe routinely if the team starts sucking again. Too many people think that Wings fans are automatically not "fair wheather fans" like the fans in Chicago are. They are wrong. Detroit has as high a percentage of fair weather fans as anyone, but we haven't seen a poor-weather Red Wings team in like 20 years.

As far as hockey being bigger in Canada than it is in the US....yes, yes it is. That is something that should come into the conversation when comparing Detroit and Toronto, but not Detroit and Chicago. In my estimation, Chicago and Detroit fans aren't all that different. Both show up and cheer when the team is winning, both stay home and watch Dancing With the Stars when they aren't.

I can definitely agree with this, which is why I responded to skacore's post which stated:

I think he just means it will be nice to play in front of a full crowd rather than just half an arena full and being able to hear them cheer and stuff and feed off them

Assuming Detroit doesn't have many fans in the arena in comparison, that Chicago has actual cheering compared to Detroit, and that Chicago's players can feed off their fans, unlike Detroit. Those assertions, plus the sarcastic coating, were what brought my posting in this thread to begin with.

[stormboy 47]

I'm not from Detroit, I'm from Wisconsin. We don't even have an NHL team. I find no fault in the things you've said above - I wish Detroit (the city and it's people) nothing but the best. I applaud you for embracing the good and having pride in your city. I get concerned that some (not you) take that attitude a too far, and instead of just taking pride in the great things about Detroit (or the Red Wings), they start to believe that everything about the Red Wings and their fans is different and better than it is elsewhere. Civic pride, and even pride in your favorite soprts team is good - but fantasy isn't.

no, you're absolutely right. i see that attitude as well. it is particularly well evidenced by the belief that many have that any player in the league should be willing to take a massive paycut to play in detroit -- and often will be demonized if they choose not to. while i do believe that detroit is a great hockey city -- especially given the present economic circumstances -- i agree that it is not by default head-and-shoulders above any other city in this regard.

FWIW, I could use a new truck. Rather than considering an import, I'm going to wait for Detroit to come around and build one that get's markedly better milage than my 1993 300cid 6 cyl F-150. I'm pulling for y'all.

appreciate it, man. i'm not actually from detroit either; my mom is, and i've lived in michigan my whole life. throughout the playoffs, as i'm sure you noticed, they would, at the joe, often play the clip from journey's "don't stop believing" near the end of games. for me, there was something that always gave me goosebumps when they cut the audio and the crowed screamed, "born and raised in south detroit." the other day i was listening to NPR (on point) and a caller prefaced his statement by saying, "i'm from detroit, and we're hanging on." for some reason it almost brought a tear to my eye.

now obviously none of this has to do with hockey, and unless a player has a connection to michigan (that, for example, hossa obviously does not have) one cannot expect them to feel the same way. but i think that all of this has a lot to do with how fans see their team. every fan is going to get defensive of their team and of their city (except when osgood gives up a late goal in a tight game ), but that may be particularly true of detroit fans right now. thus, i'm going to get a little defensive when you say that calling detroit fans loyal is a deliberate lie. we're trying.