marcaractac

Bold 1: You're both choosing specific stats that agree with your arguments. From each point of view, you're both correct. What you say about both players total time with Detroit is true. What he says about both players since Zadina got called up is true. You both get a sticker. Bold 2: Nobody is hating Fabbri (except nyqvististhefuture, but he is always wrong anyway). We all love Fabbri. Fabbri is love. Fabbri is life. Conclusion: Zadina and Fabbri are both awesome and will both be important, core players on this team going forward.

Oh absolutely. I'm just not sure they'd be interested in joining a work in progress at this point in their careers. But yes, Lafreniere can change the game. Even when it comes to attracting UFAs. Markstrom, Lehner, or Greiss can solidify that position along with Bernier. Krug or Barrie at the right price could certainly speed the rebuild up as well. Key words, right price.

That would be lovely, but sadly a pipe dream haha. He'd have to do something like part ways with Mantha. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll land a first for AA to a team expected to be good next year but ends up sucking, like SJ now.

I just don't think proven coaches would have much interest at coming to a team at the bottom of a rebuild. Sure Gallant went to Vegas when they were expected to be a s***ty expansion team, but he got that taste of going to the finals and coaching a perennial playoff team. I have little doubt Laviolette wants to win as well. For a team in the Wings state, it's likely either stick with what you got, hire a garbage coach desperate for a job, or bring in someone new. Assuming no coaching upgrades want to come here, which is likely, I'm all for sticking it out with Blash to see what he can do as the team gets better. Who knows, maybe he would do great things with a capable roster. He's yet to have one at the NHL level. He walked into a lose-lose situation in Detroit and has done a great job developing young players.

Position is only influencing my opinion because I do not think Raymond will be any better or worse of a winger than Drysdale will be on d, or Stutzle will be at center. As I said, if all is equal, which in my opinion, is the case with those three players. The rankings have so much fluctuation after the first 2 picks, that it's just more or less a wash in the 3-7 range as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps you've looked into Raymond a lot more than I have. Who knows? He will be a great player, no doubt. I just don't think he'll be any better (or worse!) than the other two that I'd prefer. You see Raymond in a tier above Drysdale and Stutzle. I see all three in the same tier, which is why I use position solely as a tiebreaker. I think Drysdale will be the steal of the draft tbh. Like Byfield, he is one of the younger players in the top 10. The way he stepped up in high pressure situations in the WJC when Byram got hurt was also wonderful to see. I do think he will end up as a Hughes/Makar calibre dman. He is also known for playing well on the defensive side of things too. He'll be a beast in the WJC next year, no doubt. The Bobfather also has no doubt he'll be a top pairing dman in the NHL. Dude says the kid is legit, and I see nothing out there to argue otherwise. Raymond will be awesome as well, of course.

We've all had a moment where we felt a draft pick is a mistake. We'll always be influenced by our own opinions. Human nature, my dude. Remember how pissed we both were because of Ras over Vilardi? Yes, if Yzerman drafts Raymond at 3 or 4 I'll be disappointed. I'd feel like it is not the right move. But I'd certainly expect that it's because they obviously know s*** that I do not. I'd also still think we got some major holes to fill down the middle and on the blueline. My list would be Lafreniere, Byfield, Drysdale/Stutzle, Drysdale/Stutzle. I flip flop between those two depending on my mood. Both would be dynamic offensive forces in their respective positions that we very much need. It's a better debate over whether or not to claim Comrie, at least

We're Canadian

******* of course Yzerman knows more than either of us. All we can develop our own opinions on is the information available to us. Doesn't necessarily make us wrong, as we can only estimate the value of players based on what we know. Maybe Yzerman likes Raymond at 3, maybe he absolutely does not. I'm not here to discuss what I think Yzerman will do. I'm here to discuss my own opinion, and what I hope to see happen. Yzerman's list has nothing to do with my opinion on the players expected to be available at 3 or 4. Just look at all the various rankings out there. Loads of disagreement from picks 3-10. Including where Raymond sits. This goes to show that either of these players could be considered BPA depending who you ask. And based on that, if it is me making the choice, I'd draft based on position. If Yzerman thinks Raymond is the best at #3 than so be it. What am I gonna do, cry about it? And once again, I do not think Rossi belongs in the conversation at picks 3 or 4. Whether I'd choose Raymond or Rossi is irrelevant, because I'd take neither at 3 or 4. If you like Raymond more than Drysdale or Stutzle, that's fine. Not trying to change your opinion, just giving insight to mine. I'd take Drysdale or Stutzle without question. I think it would be s***ty to take Raymond, because based on the information I have at my disposal, all seems about equal between Raymond, Drysdale, and Stutzle. Just like you'd probably be disappointed if we get Drysdale or Stutzle instead of Raymond. Them's the breaks. We simply rank these three players differently. What Yzerman wants to do is irrelevant. It's certainly not uncommon for the centers and dmen to be snatched up before wingers once the top 1 or 2 players are off the table. Just look at the Zadina draft. Kotkanwqjdncuioq2wemi and Hayton were taken over the potential elite winger in Zadina. It's not some unprecedented thing.

How many times do I have to say it? If all is equal, which I think is the case for this draft, in terms of players that will be available at picks 3 and 4, I'd pick for positional need. I prefer Stutzle and Drysdale over Raymond because I think it terms of where they rank, they are all about equal. I don't think either of those players will be better than the other in their respective positions. So yes, I think if we pick #3, Yzerman should pass on Raymond. My personal opinion. Either Raymond, Drysdale or Stutlze could easily be considered BPA at that spot. Because of that, I'd draft for position and go with Stutzle or Drysdale. If Yzerman feels Raymond is better than Drysdale or Stutzle than fine. He and his team are the experts, not you are I. They are the ones attending the games to watch these kids play. All we get to see if what video feeds show us. They get to watch what the players do away from the play. They get to interview them. They get to know them. So based on what I have personally seen, I don't think Raymond is any better or worse than Drysdale or Stutzle. If Yzerman sees otherwise, I'm sure I could live with it. I honestly have no idea how many more times I need to re-iterate that in this scenario I'd draft for need only because all else is equal in my eyes. At least the Rossi discussion finally stopped, I guess.

That's literally the only point I was making. Because they are more valuable. Having a couple elite centers makes a team a hell of a lot more difficult to play against than one with a couple of elite wingers. You don't think Rossi will be a center at the NHL level. That's fine. I think he will be, which is why I take him over Raymond any day. Outside of Lafreniere, who is no doubt the best player in the draft, there is no way I'd draft a winger with the top pick. Not with the quality of ceters and the defenseman available. We've already had a recent draft of choosing the winger over the dman (Zadina). We don't need to do it again already (unless Lafreniere). We have only two sure things as far as top 4 dmen go (Hronek and Seider) and no guarantees for a second line center. With the exception of getting a guaranteed elite talent like Lafreniere, those positions have to be addressed. Luckily in picks 2-4 there will be players in those positions who can absolutely be considered best player available. Rossi doesn't even factor in at this point, as even if we pick 4th we can get Drysdale or Stutzle. Not a chace I'd draft a winger over those two. If you would, that's fine. Not gonna try and convince you otherwise. Yay opinions!

To be fair, the Leafs are still on the outside looking in The team hasn't quit, but they sure suck at playing without the puck. But yes, if there are obvious upgrades available I get making a change. The question is, how many proven coaches are itching to join a team at this stage of a rebuild?

It's the combination of elite talent and position that makes Crosby what he is. Not just the talent. As for Rossi, I already said I'd take Drysdale over him, as I think he'll be a better dman than Rossi will center. Rossi is merely an example of taking the center over the winger if all else is equal. For me, Rossi over Raymond is a given. Both are about equal as far as rankings go, but Rossi IS a center. Even if he plays wing in the NHL because of center depth, guess what? In the case of injuries, Rossi can play center. Raymond can't. The Pens would be a much different team if Crosby was a winger. Would they still be a contender? Sure. But that second line suddenly gets far easier to play against doesn't it?

I don't get why you're making a case for Crosby or McDavid as wingers when I already said I'd choose Lafreniere, a winger, in a heartbeat. Teams with elite centers win more often than those who depend on elite wingers. I'd take a team of elite centers and good wingers over a team with good centers and elite wingers any day. Obviously having an elite winger would be great, just not at the expense of a comparable center. If you think Raymond is the BPA at #3 or 4 that's fine. That isn't the point I am making. The point I am making is if all is about equal, it's dumb to take a winger over a center or dman. I don;t understand why you'd argue such a thing when you say s*** like "If all is equal, I'd take the right-handed player."

Of course Marner doesn't play center. He is on a team with Mathews and Tavares. Good wingers are available in UFA all the time. Because teams spend their cap on centers and defense. How many wingers has Malkin and Crosby been through at this point? It's a much easier position to replace than down the middle. It isn't even a debate. Nobody is saying elite wingers aren't worth anything. They just aren't worth as much as their center and defense counterparts. Once again, we get that #1 pick, I take the winger in Laffreniere without hesitation. He is above and beyond any other player in the draft. The same absolutely cannot be said for Raymond at #3 or 4. If we get Rossi and he ends up as an elite winger, so be it. It's far easier to go from center to wing than vice-versa. Between Rossi, Veleno, and Ras, you have a SIGNIFICANT increase of a legit top 6 center. For the record, I'd take Drysdale with Laffy, Byfield, and Stutzle off the board.

Like, if Yzerman wants Gallant, I think that's cool. I like how Gallant-coached teams play. Outside of that, I'm all for seeing what Blash can do with a competent roster. Once there are expectations of improvement and the team fails, THAT is when the coach should be replaced. Blash is great at getting an effort out of the guys, despite only winning 12 games. I've seen teams quit on the season with better records.

Bert has been great, Zadina is progressing nicely, Mantha was having a breakout season, Hronek keeps getting better, and Larkin is heating up after a sluggish season with extra focus on D. Blash has been great handling those guys. Neither are underachieving. It's all the aging vets who aren't doing anything. It's the lack of NHL quality D and mediocre Howard that has killed us most of the season. None of that is Blashill's fault.

I don't know why you're making the best player available argument when I already agreed with it. After Lafreniere and Byfield, the jury is out on the rankings. Nobody agrees, because those players are close. If they are that close, it's wise to draft center or d. Teams don't give up high end centers or dmen. A trade can be made for a good right-handed winger literally any time. Caps had Kuznetzov and Backstrom down the middle. Blues also had Pietrangelo leading the blueline. I'm not saying a winger can't be the best/second best player on a team. I'm just saying the teams who are elite down the middle tend to keep that contender window open far longer than anyone else. Tarasenko got hurt long term. Blues are still trucking along comfortably. If it was O'Reilly who got hurt, their season would be a lot tougher. Again, not a knock on Tarasenko. It's just easier to get help on wing than down the middle. Pens lost Crosby for a long time. They stayed an elite team because they have another top center in Malkin.

Like I said, I don't see guys like Raymond or Holtz being any better than Drysdale, Rossi, or Stutzle. They are all pretty even as far as rankings go. Nobody stands out. In such a case, position should absolutely be the deal breaker. The teams with elite depth down the middle keep on contending (Pens, Bruins). The teams who depend on elite wingers do not (Winnipeg). Pens and Bruins have their down years, but they always reload and contend again because of the elite depth down the middle. It's insane to say that isn't any more important than wingers. Every GM would disagree with it. If a winger in a draft is absolutely the best available? Absolutely, take it. That's why I'd take Lafreniere over anyone.

Only winger I'd be willing to draft with that first pick this summer is Lafreniere. Whether it's picks 3 or 4 I feel there will be centers or dmen at least as good as any available winger. Those positions will always win out. Stutzle, Rossie, Drysdale should be (and likely will be) targeted over Raymond or Holtz. Sure it would be lovely if we could safely predict Ras or Veleno to be that legit 2nd line center. Problem is, we can't. And in the end, when the team is competitive again, it'll be a hell of a lot easier to trade for wingers than it would be for centres or dmen. I hope so. I do feel we'll leapfrog 2 or 3 teams in the standings next year *cough* LA, SJ, ANA *cough*. If the Sens can hang with em this year, the Wings can next year.

True, but we also need more than just Hronek and Seider on defense. We're still lacking that high-end skill dman. We add one more legit future top 4 dman, and life would be good in that position for many years. In the end, we'll suck next year as well.

That's the dream. Winning Lafreniere.

That's because everyone is padding their stats against Detroit

I think there is a pretty decent chance Stutzle is still available at 4. Not a guarantee, but pretty decent odds. IF those three are gone, I'd hope we take Drysdale or Rossi.

In the end, I believe we're getting either Lafreniere, Byfield, or Stutzle

It'll be like Ice Hockey for the NES, icing an entire team of fatsos.