Carman

Ryan is also "lazy", along with Sharp, Marleau, Neal etc. It's not a good thing, but just saying trading him for one of the above would be worth the extra pieces we'd give up. It would be the same thing over again.

Bad streches happen for wingers, Ovechkin only had 1 goal in 5 games of the Boston series as well. Hossa had no goals in 3 games(although injured not really fair), Sharp had one goal, Marleau had no goals, Couture had one, Neal had two goals in the highest scoring series in the history of the game=P haha. All I'm saying is trading Franzen might not solve our problem, Ryan wouldn't be that big of an improvement if at all in the playoffs. And Franzen's proven to be an elite playoff performer.

Fair enough, my bad. Just in context I took it as though he wouldn't even been playing in the NHL if not with us. Sammy's not a bad secondary scorer imo, just worried about injuries.

He would have lead the Kings, tied on Boston, and was1 goal behind D. Sedin on Vancouver. Pretty good teams, no?

Quincey is the same height as Stuart(a couple pounds lighter) and fairly physical all while being a better skater(not saying he's better defensively, but potential is there), Smith is physical and 6'1", White maybe small is actually pretty tough around the net. Ericsson is using his body much more than the past(increasing number of hits every season). I agree though, I would love a Willie Mitchell type dman, but there is potential for us to be a lot more physical on the back end than we've been in the last couple years.

Agreed, it would be nice to have that all around winger, that's why I was sad to see Hossa go. But honestly if you look around the league wingers are a lot like Franzen, the top tier two way wingers are incredibly rare. Out of the top 30 goal wingers the player you are asking for are Parise, Hossa, Iginla, Couture, Clarkson, Giroux, Callahan . These are the wingers that don't take shifts off that I've seen. Ryan, Nash, Gaborik, Neal, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Sharp, Eberle, Moulson, Perry, Kessel, Neal, Pavelski, Sedin, Marleau, and Pominville all have had the lazy tag put on them at some point, And if you think Franzen takes bad percentage shots, you should take a look at Perry, Kessel or Nash who both take 100+ more shots and less shooting%, I don't think Franzen is so bad, if anything I want him taking more shots. I agree I'd like to see a more consistent effort from Franzen, but I guess I'm just saying get used to it, it's far more common to have an incosistent winger than a dynamite two way one. Work with what you have, the grass isn't always greener. I do miss Hossa, that's one that I hold against kenny.

Absolutely, I wouldn't say Sammy isn't a good player though, he's an upgrade defensively to Hudler for example, he's stronger on the puck and in the corners. I'm not saying Sammy is as valuable as Richards overall, just saying Sammy has value and didn't chose Detroit based on the only offer that's all.

You're right who would want Samuelsson, it's not like he had the same PPG as Richards, Van Riemsdyk, Roy, Brassard, Hornqviust, Setoguchi, Hemsky, S. Koivu, Gagne, Booth, Duchene, Ruutu, Morrow, Dubinsky, or Stewart. None of these players have any value, I'm surprised they are even on NHL teams!

But he plays with Datsyuk! He wouldn't be good otherwise. datsyuk can make a 5 goal player are 30 goal player duh __________________________________________________________________________________ In other thread, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are old no one would want to come to detroit to play with them. I love the contradictions.

*Puts time machine back to 07-08* During our 3 cups look at our top lines, no yzerman, fedorov, shanahan, hull, or robitaille. We don't have those now, big trouble ahead.

Ian White has put up 26 points with three teams in 10-11, 38 in 09-10, 26 in 08-09, 21 in 07-08, and 26 in 06-07 I mean it's pretty much a given that's he's going to give you 25ish points, he's a pretty good top 4 defenseman even without Lidstrom in the past. We'll see how he plays without Lidstrom for us, but I like how he plays - smart, tough, and aggressive. Quincey was terrible with us no doubt, but the potential is there for him to be extremely good defenseman, even with his bad season his numbers were the same as Erik Johnson, Visnovsky, Corvo, Meszaros.Coburn etc. And he's proven to have much more productive seasons in the past. Even if he repeats his performance last season he would still put up top 4 offensive numbers, but if he feels comfortable and starts understanding his partner/system he could really take off. Smith has done nothing in his career to assume he'll be bottom pairing defenseman, .55 in the AHL in 120 games, .92 in 95 NCAA games, for example let's take Suter, .48 in 39 NCAA games, and .36 in 63 AHL games. Brendan Smith is one of the highest potential defenseman to come out of college hockey, dominated (Almost doubled their PPG)what Gilroy, Shattenkirk, Clitsome, Petry did and they've turned out all to be solid NHL defenseman. I don't understand why people aren't as high on Smith as they should be, he very well might be the best defenseman not currently playing in the NHL. Now I don't know if that will translate into a good first season of course, defenseman are usually slow to develop, but Smith stepped right in last season and at least produced offensively in his 14 games with 7 points. So it's not like he can't play at the NHL level and came up last season and was outmatched, he needs to improve decision making no doubt, but as a rookie he looked very good in my eyes. I agree though, we could very well use another good dman, but glass half full our defense isn't as bad as it seems. I mean compare it to Pittsburgh for example, yikes I'd take ours any day of the week. I'm just saying if the pieces come together and we end up trading for a top pairing defenseman, we wouldn't just be good, we'd be among the elite. I realize "if" is a strong word, but so is assuming Quincey isn't going to play better actually having time to play with the system, or Kronwall/White might not end up having good chemistry. If's can go both ways.

Played WJC team with Abdelkader. That's about all I can think of.

It's so easy to be pessimistic, put yourself in his shoes. Search for what moves would have made sense, Instead of giving up, putting your head in the sand and saying he sucks seek out what he should have done. How was this situation avoidable? With little cap space last year would have sacrificed the last season of Lidstrom to try and get Luke Schenn? Do you think he would have been the answer for the long term? How about Brent Burns? Would the trades have put us in a better position. I'm not going to shoot any move down, I'm looking myself, I want to explore what his options were. Are you not sold on 26 year old Quincey who has a .70 PPG season under his belt ever becoming good? Why does the situation have to be dire, why can't Datsyuk and Zetterberg have a 80+ point season? Why does Cleary have to underachieve again this year, why can't Howard take a step and become elite. What reason is there that Smith can't become a very good rookie defenseman(He's proven just as much in AHL as any past rookie d man), Why was Samuelsson a bad signing? He's been productive and is proven over the course of his career to provide 40+ points.

He did get Ian White who was the among if not the best defenseman out of his free agent class. Did you want Erhoff? That sure would help defensively especially with that delicious 10 year deal. Who did you want? Can you name someone?

That's very true. Nyquist is very promising though (.97 PPG) through the AHL compare it to Hudler (.97) PPG. Add that Nyquist is a better skater, it's a safe assumption that Nyquist will be a 50 point player at the very least(although maybe not this year). Brunner is an unknown. And you're probably right other team's are likely to have better top 6's, but I'd say our top 6 can compete with the other teams for sure, and it's not among the worst in the league, and actually it's above average even assuming that Nyquist/Datsyuk/Cleary/Zetterberg/Franzen all improve which could very well happen, or at least as good of an opportunity at them doing worse.

I like this idea, awards players that helped this franchise a lot, but not quite enough to be among the franchise elite.

Let's explore this without assuming Nyquist/Brunner is going to step into Hudler's spot, and Cleary doesn't have resurgence to his average 20 goals, he went from 26 to 12, personally I feel he's going to have a bounce back year, but I digress. So let's use P/G just to account for injuries etc. and use PPG to assign lines. Zetterberg(.84)/Datsyuk(.96)/Franzen(.73) Bertuzzi(.54)/Filpulla(.81)/Sammy(.57) Sedin(.93)/Sedin(.99)/Higgins(.61) Burrows(.65)Kesler(.64)/Booth(.48) So as we see Sedin/Sedin outscore Z/D, but doesn't ..12 more ppg account for the defense gained? I don't think so, but if you do then add Franzen's production over Higgins. I'd take our line personally just from defensive purposes, but they are pretty even just offensively. Second line, Burrows better than Bertuzzi in everyway, clear win there. Kesler verse Filpulla, interesting, Filpulla had a much better season 66 points to 44, and defensive while Kesler is elite, Filpulla isn't that far behind, I'd say the .17 ppg difference tilts it in favor of Fil based on just last season, but Kesler has a better past sure, but if you accept that then why can't datsyuk go back to 97 points? Booth verse Sammy, this surprised me, wow did Booth struggle just 30 points in 62 games, Sammy might not be much better but he had 31 on Florida in 54 games. I'd give the edge to sammy even career numbers Sammy has .10 advantage. Better? Possible given what you think defense is worth etc. But way better top 6? I definitely don't see that. Pittsburgh has a better top 6, no doubt about it, but looking at their defense is a laughing stock, and Pittsburgh is my second favorite team haha. Blackhawks! i'm interested in this one Zetterberg(.84)/Datsyuk(.96)/Franzen(.73) Bertuzzi(.54)/Filpulla(.81)/Sammy(.57) Sharp(.93)/Toews(.97)/Hossa(.95) Kane(,80)Bolland(.49)/Stalberg(.54) D/Z = Sharp/Toews ? Maybe I'm not sure, Datsyuk Zetterberg are both very good defensive players, Toews is very good aswell, Sharp is average. I'll give the edge to chicago. Hossa>Franzen by a lot. First line pretty clear is Chicago. Second line If you compare it as a whole it's about equal, kane>Filpulla but Sammy/Bert are more production than Bolland/Stalberg Once again Chicago probably has a better top 6, but way better? probably not, the only team that has a way better top 6 are Pittsburgh, and they lack in the bottom 6/defense, and Fleury was a train wreck.

Best position that was possible? Yes. I thoroughly believe he did all he could to sign the only players that would have helped us win a Stanley Cup. I like the position we are in, we don't have to face the possibility of losing Horton/Seguin/Marchand/Lucic/Rask like Boston, they are right up on the cap and will probably lose someone. That's going on with a lot of the teams New York(7 forwards need to be re-signed in 14). There is only so much you can do, Holland can't just make a good player appear in free agency, or trades. If Ryan, or Yandle gets traded for scraps then blame Holland, but these players haven't even moved yet. Semin is not going to fix any long term issues, Doan is going to be overpaid a lot which would be fine if the contract wasn't going to be long(4 years). The future looks fine for Detroit even if you don't want to believe it's true.

Sammy is a 10-30 point upgrade to Holmstrom, Brunner/Nyquist are question marks, but Nyuist's .97 PPG vastly outperformed Hudler's .76 PPG in the AHL, so it's not a huge leap of faith to assume Nyquist can fill in. Tootoo is an upgrade to anyone on the 4th line for us last season. Cleary should improve his 12 goals are far below his average. Helm can stay healthy and play 70+ games and help you. Datsyuk doesn't miss 12+ games, and gets back to scoring 80+ points along with Zetterberg. I don't see why you have to be negative about the forwards, it's only a game, why you have to be mad? Did any of those teams have the depth we did? Pittsburgh's defense is not much better than ours if at all, even without Lidstrom/Stuart. If anything we have the younger and more potential defense. Kronwall, White, Quincey, Ericsson, Smith and Kindl is about the same if not better than Letang, Martin(absolute disaster), Orpik, Michalek, Niskanen(very iff), Engelland/Lovejoy Face it Ken Holland is the best, and always has our team in the best position. There hasn't been a player outside of Suter that was a Stanley Cup caliber player. EDIT: Gcom, I never said Howard was elite, we both agree there, I was just saying I feel he's better than "solid".

Sutton's hit on Leopold was a beauty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u18CBH2s7-4

Man I fixed that right after I posted haha. And that wasn't being serious with one vote anyways, just thought it would be funny without really checking it out. But my point was you don't need to be a Vezina candidate to provide better than solid goaltending, pretty much looks like semantics on what constitutes solid.

Not for goalies that played more than 50 games, that's usually what is needed to be in the award discussions is why I used it as evidenced by Elliot not being in the conversation with other worldly numbers. EDIT: Nevermind I'm an idiot that was a fan poll.

Now I'm a little young to remember Osgood's years, but how often was he well within the top 6 for GAA/SV%. I agree about not calling Howard elite, but he provides more than solid goaltending I would say, he was 3rd in GAA and 7th in SV% last season. He's the 28th highest paid goalie, and well within the top 10 for performance. Sure it's great value, but are Vezina candidates the only goalies that provide more than solid?

Yep sure did not sure why you want to rag on your vezina runner up goaltender just to fit your argument, but I enjoy the 4 million difference in salary and 6 years in age between the two. Backstrom also played in the Jacques Lemaire system(You know that neutral zone trap) for his first 3 or 4 seasons. Howard's "eliteness", never came from me the career statistics just show even with a terrible second year that he's in the conversation of top the top tier behind Lundqvist/Quick, do I think he's in with those two yet? No, but I think he's on the brink of it . He's had elite streches, and his first, and second season he was pretty solidly in the top 6 statistically with other goalies playing 50+ games.

Good point, nevermind Frk won't be ready until 2016. Carry on haha.