Carman

So wait some people actually wanted them to trade two players that both had similar years or better than Rick Nash? Not to mention their cap hits together aren't as high as his. What in the hell are people thinking?

Should be a good deal. Hope the worst is behind him with the second half last season.

I hope our penalty kill is good though. Between him and Bertuzzi we'll have tons of reputation calls. Only thing I'm not looking forward to with Tootoo well assuming suspensions aren't going to be an issue.

It's too bad he went out while recovering from a wrist injury, that has to be a tough way to end a great career.

Same with the year before that(.49 PPG) It's injury after injury with Green. He's very good offensively when he's healthy, but it's been 2 seasons since. And he's not looked like the same player(unlike other players that produce after an injury Mike Green hasn't shown to be fully recovered), and he just had surgery on his groin a couple days ago. His list of injuries is shoulder, knee, hip flexor, ankle, and groin muscle. Oh and he's had 2 concussions.

the guy did have .21 PPG last season. For example Ian White had a .41 PPG

What is so surprising? Rinne looked a lot worse in game 1 and 2 in the Phoenix series than Howard did in the Nashville series. The difference wasn't Rinne decided all of a sudden to not stop the puck, the difference was the team in front of him. Howard also had a better GAA (2.13) than Rinne(2.39), and had only .003% difference in SV%. They are not that different, the main difference is the 5 million in salary and What's surprising to me is there are still Red Wing fans that blame goaltending after so many years and example after example on how goalies are often dependent on the team in front of them.

You don't watch much hockey if you have that opinion of Jimmy Howard. The fact is Howard is a top 10 goalie in the league, and that can't be disputed. He was in the top 10 in both GAA and SV% last season. The playoffs his stats suffered because of the amount of high scoring percentage defensive breakdowns the Wing's gave up. You're criticism is completely taking the blame off of the Red Wings team. Watch the Nashville series and just count the odd man rushes we gave up, I did the Red Wings gave up 20 more 2 on 1's, 3, on 1's and breakaways than Nashville gave up. Think about that for a moment and still tell me goaltending was the biggest issue. Goaltending is reliant on the team in front of them to give them a clear view of the shot, clear rebounds and limit breakdowns, fact is the Red Wings struggled mightily in that area and that's the reason they lost. In the cap era you are much better signing a goalie like Howard and see if he can develop to be elite, than overpaying on an "elite" goalie like Luongo, Bryzgalov, Kiprusoff, Backstrom, Ryan Miller, Carey Price, Rinne, Lundqvist, Hiller, Thomas and Fleury which Howard had equal to or better seasons than. Sure he's not Jonathan Quick, but Jimmy Howard is a very good option for the Red Wings. What realistic options would we have to improve there anyways? Would you even want Fleury? How about Luongo? How about Miller and his 2.55 gaa? Goalies are sporadic, and I believe it's much more important to improve the team in front of the goalie when your goalie is putting up top 10 numbers, because finding an improvement for that is going to be a long shot gamble.

Yep, goalies are often times are only as good as the defense in front. Phoenix is a good example, Bryzgalov was much better there than in Philly, and Mike Smith was able to step in and put up amazing numbers. Minnesota - Backstrom's numbers were much better when they played a much more conservative defensive system. Pittsburgh - Fleury has never been great in my mind, but Pittsburgh has had much better defenses than they did last season. Howard is the type of goalie you really like in the salary cap era, he's not going elite money, but will put up top 5 numbers when playing in front of a good defense(First half of last year and rookie season)

Patience is a virtue. Also don't we have 16 forwards?

Crosby took a lot less then he's worth because he's a team player and leader.

That's true, honestly I think Jurco is a little embarrassed that so far he's known as the guy doing stickhandling stuff off the ice. It's really not a big deal though, growing up we did that stuff all the time off the ice/after practice etc doesn't really affect him one way or another, I really doubt he's going to try any of that stuff in a game anyways. He's a a great skater, decent size, great play making instincts, and goes to the net those are the attributes that are impressive, not really the stickhandling stuff.

Rafalski was an elite point producing defenseman, s***ty knee's or not he was putting up 50ish points a season, Erhoff's done it once. We already have enough puck movers which make Erhoff/Wiz unappealing to me, I feel like they wouldn't fulfill their purpose on the Red Wings, we need to get better defensively on the back end, not offensively. And I watch a lot of hockey, +/- doesn't mean a whole lot to me, I watch a lot of Wisniewski as he's a local guy, you think Kronwall pinches a lot or takes chances? Watch a Columbus/Montreal game, Wisniewski is a very very poor defender in my opinion.

The term is what gets me on those deals, I don't think they've proven to be good enough for the number of years they wanted. I really don't think Buffalo/Columbus fans are running out to buy Erhoff/Wisniewski jerseys. Erhoff- The idea behind a 10 year contract is that the player would eventually outperform his cap hit in the beginning to negate any complications when he enters his twilight, but take a look at his stats, do you feel there is an indication that he's worth the 40 million dollar gamble or outperforming a $4 million dollar cap hit? That's just talking about offensively, ask any Vancouver/Buffalo fan and they will tell you how he is on defense, let's just say not close to $4 million dollar's especially on the top pairing. And you said it yourself, we have plenty of puck moving defensemen, I don't think he would have been a very good fit. Wisniewski- 6 years 5.5 million I can see the appeal, he's got potential injured last season but played well at least offensively, he can hit but he's only 6'0 not exactly menacing and tough. Much like Ian White in the toughness area. But again, defensively he is very prone to turnovers, isn't a great skater and has a problem with pinching. Again I don't think it would have been a very good fit for the Red Wings in regards to what kind of defenseman we need.

Doughty had a 50+ point campaign at a young age. But I agree our defense needs improvement, that's what the 17 million dollars and trade assets are for. option one was to get Suter, we came in second place, option two is explore the trade market, and it will take time for a deal to be made.

I guess you hate the King's situation too? I mean their top defenseman is getting paid 7 million dollars and had 36 points and -2 despite playing regular minutes with defensively responsible players like Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Mitchell.

No way he gets $30 million/4 years. Unless someone in Islanders just won the lottery haha

I'm not trying to bait you into anything, I'm just trying to understand your position. How can you say Holland should have done "something", when you can't name that "something"? I'd get not liking some of Holland's moves like trading to get Quincy, or if you wanted Holland to be more in on the Burns trade. I wouldn't necessarily agree with you, but at least I'd know where you are coming from and we can compare predictions and thoughts on the future of the Red Wings given the move would have wanted him to make. Right now you're argument is you don't like Holland because he didn't do something you can't even come up with? Out of those names you listed I honestly think the Red Wings are better off without overpaying for them. I really prefer the situation we have now without one of those defenseman, than if we had one. Ian White is better than any of those names, and he's signed for 2.8 million. Deals are out there. If the Red Wings miss the playoffs due to not spending, I'd understand the dismay, but until then I don't understand the disappointment, because I just don't see how those players make the Red Wings better.

How? What? Which move could he have realistically done? I don't know of a dman that has been moved that could replace lids, can I get a name?

Of course, Holland should take the blame if the team tanks. I'd be with you if we miss the playoffs next year. I'd probably support him for one more season, but that's it. I have very high expectations of this team, I'm just looking at the situation as realistically as I can, and I cannot come up with any moves the past few seasons that would put the Red Wings in a better situation then they are now.

Wasn't refering to just his work as GM. No doubt it helped White, but he was still productive on his own merit especially given his contract. His production was the second best in the 2011 free agent class behind Bieksa. In my opinion you only overpay when you get an elite player, overpaying for Brent Burns would not have helped us. Overpaying for Suter? Probably would have helped us. And Holland was planning to. I just don't see the situations the past few years that would have made sense to overpay, could you cite some? Indeed past success is only as important as your future, and I fail to see how the Wings are looking bad in the future, our prospect pool is by all accounts very deep, and we have plenty of cap room to improve.

Wait Ian White, the defenseman that was +23 and 32 points for 2.8 million isn't very good? He is better than Ehroff, Kaberle, Goligoski, Bogosian, Girardi, Bouwmeester, Fowler, Erik Johnson etc. He played very very well last season. Yikes. And I disagree with overpaying for players, you make moves that make your team better. Just making a move to appease fans is why big market teams like Toronto, New York, Vancouver, Philly etc. fans are disappointed every single year. And "Now look where we are", you mean the team that's made the playoffs 20 years in a row, with trade assets, that's involved in every trade rumor/free agent signing? It's just a mater of time before you get what you want. Be happy he didn't sign Erhoff or Wisniewski last season. I'd still like an example of a move that would have made you happy. Because I can't think of a defenseman that's been traded recently that would.

Holland has done many things, and it's resulted in us being one of the greatest franchises in all of sports for the last 20 or so years. We aren't Calgary, we aren't strapped for cash to spend, and have a barren prospect pool. You haven't given any reason for being disappointed other than he should have done "something", what is that "something" he should have done? Did you want him to give up Filppula, Smith and a first round pick for Brent Burns? I know I wouldn't have. What other defenseman have been traded the last few seasons that would actually have been acceptable? How about free agents did you want Wisniewski for 6 years? We got a very good defenseman in Ian White, and right now the Red Wings are in a great position in being able to be in every trade scenario and being in on every big time free agent, it sucks that we didn't land Suter, but it's not like Holland isn't doing anything, and to say he isn't is just presenting a very weak argument based on a biased preconception that's due to ignorance of the situation.

It is a better situation to have it blow up, with room to change. Than have it blow up when you are spending to the cap and have to buy out contracts. Holland is being smart.

So last off-season what did you want him to do? They couldn't afford Brad Richards with Lidstrom coming back, did you want to spend 4.5 million on Connolly? How about 2.8 on Arnott? Fleischmann for 4 million? Gagne for 3.5? Really don't think any of those forwards would have made a huge impact on the quality of team for the coming years. Defensemen? Did you want any of these names Jovanowski for 4 years, $16.5 million? haha Hamirilk, Souray, Kaberle 3 years(which I would have been ok with), Wisniewski 6 years, Ehrhoff 10 years? Ian White for 2 years, $5.75 million was a great deal for the wings, all the above players you had to make a long term commitment, for a player that's not exactly proven to be a very good NHLer year after year. Free agency is not the only way to win a Stanley Cup, Trading and Drafting/Development are both better options due to getting better deals for players you aren't sure of. You don't give out huge contracts at free agency for players that are just average to above, you give them to players you are sure will be among the best in the league. You overpay in free agency, so you have to be sure you give yourself the best option to get your investment back, and these past two offseasons the only players worth the long term commitment they got where Suter/Parise/Richards(couldn't afford) and the Wings did what they could to get them. Now if we heard that the Red Wings aren't involved in any of these players then I'd understand the disappointment, but the Wings are involved in practically every available player through trades and almost all of the higher end free agents means that Holland is working, and he's not just given up and playing golf somewhere.