Buppy

I said it doesn't matter. Never said people didn't care. Sports sites print standings because people want to see them, and they print them using the NHL's standard;which is points. Games in hand would in the analogy be the birds in the bush. They are already factored in by virtue of only a two point lead, instead of more. But you still can't count the points until they're actually earned. If it really makes you feel better, go ahead and sort teams by point %. Like I said it means nothing until the end of the season anyway, when the games even out. I don't know for sure, but I would assume the NHL would have some contigency in the event that the season couldn't be completed. Probably something like throwing out any 'extra' games for teams that have played more than the team playing the fewest. But here's a scenario to illustrate the value of points: Team 1: 45-27-10 82 games 100 pts .610 point% Team 2: 40-22-16 78 games 96 pts .615 point% Team 2 is better, right? Not so fast. Because of the wins, team 2 actually needs 5 points to pass team 1. But Team 2 can not maintain that point%. You can't earn fractions of points. 4 points = .500 point% 5 points = .625 point% So even though Team 2 was technically better, they still need to improve their play over those last 4 games.

Well, he's missed an average of 14 games in each of the last 4 years. 4 weeks puts him out until around the end of January... 13 or 14 games. I guess we should have seen it coming. Will be nice to get an extended look at Mursak at least.

Hudler did walk that year, remember. It would have been more like no Bertuzzi and Williams, and possibly losing more than just Leino once we got healthy. And that's assuming we were willing to sign Hossa to that long term deal to keep the cap hit that low.

Beside the point, but I've always thought it strange how the NHL has that as the first tiebreaker, when the only time a tiebreaker is really needed is at the end of the season when everyone will have played the same number of games...

How could we have kept Hossa? We were right up at the cap with Flip @ $3M (Over actually, counting Lilja). How could we have afforded another $2M+?

The NHL sorts mid-season rankings by points. Pretty simple really. It's not like you get anything for mid-season rankings. So it doesn't really matter. Point% is certainly a better indicator of how well a team is doing, but there is that old saying about a bird in the hand. Points you actually have are better than points you could potentially get. 15-14-1 is better than 16-17-1, but there's always a chance the first team could lose all four games in hand and end up 15-18-1. So until they actually get the points they stay behind in the rankings. Like Joey said, we all end up playing 82 games, so the teams with games in hand will either make up the point difference and move ahead, or lose and stay behind.

Don't remember the year exactly, but I remember watching tape-delay Wings games on channel 50 at 11 o'clock. I guess nothing tells as much about the popularity of 80's NHL Hockey like being pre-empted on local non-network TV by Three's Company reruns.

Winner!

One more, since you're missing my favorite current US player...

You two seem a little confused about what I was saying. Zetterberg PPG Regular season: 0.95 PPG Playoffs: 0.94 Crosby PPG Regular: 1.39 PPG playoffs: 1.32 Malkin PPG regular: 1.21 PPG playoffs: 1.18 Getzlaf PPG regular: 0.94 PPG playoffs: 0.84 Filppula PPG regular: 0.45 PPG playoffs: 0.55 You'll notice that Flip is the only one of those five whose playoff PPG is higher than their regular season PPG. While the other four are certainly much better players, they are also paid much more. Flip also has the best point/cap hit in the playoffs of all those players. You also seem to have a very misguided notion of what a second line center is supposed to be. Last year, there were 57 centers who scored 40 or more points. There were 25 who scored 60 or more. Only 53 forwards who scored 60 or more. 40+ points IS a decent second line NHL center. Malkin is not the standard for a good second line center. 60+ points pretty much means first line talent. On a Cup caliber team, the standards are higher of course, but that is less an indictment of Flip than it is praise of the Wings. He is certainly no worse than the 5th best forward on the team, and I think it's pretty close between him and Cleary for that spot. Flip's detractors seem to think he either needs to be a consistent scorer or relegated to the third line. The truth is if he could consistently produce points the way he does when he's 'on', that would pretty much make him Datsyuk/Zetterberg, and he'd be commanding twice the salary, and thus playing for another team. You can't compare him to Zetterberg and other superstar players. But some people seem to be under the impression that Flip has to be at that level to be considered valuable. Another thing people complain about how long we've been waiting for Flip to break out, as if certain fans' unrealistic expections determine how successful a player is. A couple years ago, people expected a lot from Flip. People also expected him to center a second line with Franzen and Hossa. Considering he spent the majority of the year centering the third line with Hudler and Sammy, with minimal PP time, 40 points in 80 games WAS a lot. Put him in the top 200 in PPG, top 160 in points, among forwards...fringe 2nd line territory. People expected a lot last year. But who expected him to spend a third of the season out with injury and another third playing with the likes of Leino (Detroit version), Williams, Miller, Abby, etc. Despite that, he was still top 170 in points, and top 120 in PPG. Solidly 2nd line production. In one 31 game stretch after he came back from his injury, he scored 27 points. 31 games is pretty long to be considered an aberrant streak. That's a protracted run of top-line caliber production. The only way you can complain about anything prior to this season is if you ignore circumstance or have insanely unrealistic standards. The guy has real talent offensively. Easily a 2nd-liner by league-wide standards. While his point totals are a bit disappointing thus far this season, people really need to stop judging him by an all-star standard. Need to realize that players like him are going to be streaky and inconsistent scorers, thus why he makes $3M instead of $6M. Realize that a few good games, like the 8 points in 3 games he had last year, would bump him right up close to the 60 point pace people think he should be at. I would trade him for a ~35+ goal scorer in a heartbeat, because the team needs someone like that a lot more than we need someone like Flip. But I'm not going to rag on the kid for not being something he's neither expected to be, nor is paid to be.

Relative to talent, Eaves is outplaying (or at least out-producing) everyone except Cleary and maybe Homer.

I think one of Flip's main problems this year is that he hasn't really been using his speed since early in the year. A couple other fast guys like Cleary and Eaves could be just the thing to get him moving again. Plus Eaves has been hot lately and deserves a chance in Pav's absence.

Are you really comparing a bunch of superstars to Filppula? Aside from Leino, who had one great year, none of those players should be compared to Flip. Flip has a higher PPG in the playoffs than he does in the regular season. You know who can't say the same? Zetterberg. And Crosby. And Malkin. And Getzlaf. Richards just barely, primarily due to his abnormally low regular season total last year. Leino has had one playoff. Ward and Kane have two, one really good one that skews the stats a little. Pronger is a beast, but he's also probably the 2nd best defenseman this generation and a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. Flip's not a superstar, but he most certainly does step up his play in the playoffs. Of course the players you listed (except Leino) are better. If Flip was on their level, he'd be on another team because we couldn't afford him.

This year, it could end up being over 10. There's only 19 goalies in the league making over $3M. Not all of them are regular starters, and most got their deals before last season. Last year we saw a lot of teams aim for the 'cheap' goaltending Detroit and Chicago took advantage of, and I think that will continue. Jimmy will need to improve greatly from his recent play if he want to get $3M+, as that seems to be becoming the high point of goalie price range.

Age isn't that big of a factor. The one year price of a 50-60+ point, Norris caliber defenseman would be in the $8-10M range. $6.2 would be well worth it.

Jimmy Howard - Too early yet. If he keeps playing the way he has the past 10 games or so, then <$2M. If he gets back to last year's regular season and/or puts up a strong playoff, then $3.5+ Jonathan Ericcson - $1-1.5M, barring any remarkable jump in performance Patrick Eaves - $750K-1.5M Nicklas Lidstrom - Whatever he wants, probably around the same as this year. I'd love it if he only asked for $4-5M, to give us a little extra space to play with, even though the FA crop is pretty sparse. I'm not sure Kenny would even be willing to pay him less than Rafi.

If you want to discuss hockey, try one of the threads discussing hockey. If you want to discuss other teams and their fans, remember that this a Wings board, with a Wings bias, and the prevailing opinion about other teams is going to fall somewhere in the range of 'indifference' to 'they suck'. Deal. The right, sure. It's a free country. Those fans have the right to be classless douchebags. And we have the right to call them as such. Justification is debateable, and it seems we can't agree on that issue. So I guess we should just leave it at that. Forgive me if I rant a bit here. I don't have a problem with 'bandwagon' fans the sense of fans who only take interest when the team is winning. Every organization in sports has those. I don't think you have to be a die-hard attending every game no matter how bad the team is to be a good fan. People have limited time and income, I don't expect people to spend what they have on a poor product. For me, it's the attitude of some bandwagoners that gets to me. The attitude that brings them out in droves to Wings boards demanding respect. We didn't even play you in the playoffs. We were nothing more than an also-ran last season. Why are you here looking for validation? Why does everyone come to us to wave their victory banners, mock us for our failures? Does it really mean so much around the league for teams to be considered better than us? I guess we should take it as a compliment, but I just find it annoying. Let me ask you this; in 2008, how many Wings fans went out policing the Hawks boards for any percieved slights to our status? Also, the sense of entitlement for some of these fans even though they haven't proven a willingness to pay their dues. I don't mean supporting a losing team. In many ways it's much easier to support a team with no expectations. You can't be disappointed. I mean supporting a good team that loses when you expect them to win. You talk about how much success the Wings have had in recent memory, but that is a double-edged sword. With that success comes the expectation of more success. Since 1995, our seasons have had only two possible conclusions: Cup or Failure. We might have the most successful team over that span, but at the same time we have also endured the most failure. We are invested in our team to an extent I don't think you really understand. Probably half the leauge would be ecstatic just to make the playoffs this year. For us the prospect of missing the playoffs borders on tragic. A first round loss here is an embarassment. Last year in Phoenix it was an epic achievement, even though they had home ice and could easily have been considered the favorite. When Pittsburgh and Chicago lost to us, fans took it as a moral victory that they made it so far. When we lost to the Ducks and Pens in the same circumstances, they were profoundly disappointing failures. Even when we won the Cup most of the talk around the league centered around the rise of the Penguins. You all come here playing the victim because we don't idolize every Cup winner, demanding respect that you haven't earned. Maybe it's just the 'instant success' factor; you haven't had a chance yet to take your lumps, but you are willing to. Pens fans probably would have said the same thing, but their bandwagon seemed to empty pretty quickly. Come back when the Hawks are eliminated. Make excuses, whine about officiating and injuries and bad luck and all the other things you do when you're frustrated because your team let you down. Listen to fans around the league berate you for those excuses, tell you your reign is over. Fans around the league hate the Wings and us fans. Every team has the Wings games circled on their schedule almost like a rival or defending champ. League marketing is even sick of us, and always looking for the next big thing to replace us as headliners. That's what we Wings fans have been doing for over a decade. You don't deserve the thrill of victory if defeat isn't agony. You haven't shown that yet. Even now you talk about the Hawks struggles like it doesn't bother you, like you expect nothing, like you could walk away from a second round loss with your head held high. Success is wonderful, and much appreciated, but also a reminder of the greater success we've failed to achieve. Your success still leaves you a lot closer to Nashville than it does to us, and you haven't yet demonstrated any emotional investment in your team. Yet you have the gall to step into enemey territory demanding equality in our justifiably biased discussions. Un-*******-believable.

He didn't 'do' anything other than 'simply leave the team'. There is nothing 'treasonous' about playing for a rival. There have been literally hundreds of players to do so in NHL history. But that's really beside the point. Like I said earlier, there is a time and place for it. During an honors ceremony commemorating past crontributions is not it. Booing a former player when he's playing against you as a member of a rival team, like Fedorov, is fine. But if Fedorov were to be honored here, or we hold some celebration of the Cup wins he was a part of, I wouldn't expect him to get booed, and would think anyone doing so was disrespectful and classless. As Chelios said, let bygones be bygones. You even said yourself that he shouldn't have been booed, so what exactly are you defending? Do you really think anyone is suggesting that every single Hawks fan is classless? Mickey made a generalization about the Hawk fans in attendence. I think he even said something to the effect of 'not all of them' but it doesn't matter. It was a generalization, and many fans here are doing the same thing. Have we as humans devolved into such PC ******* that we can't suffer hearing a generalization, even though everyone knows that generalizations are not, nor are even intended, to be taken as absolutes? We're criticizing Hawks fans as classless for booing Cheli. If you weren't booing him, it should go without saying that the criticism doesn't apply to you. Should we have provided a list of names of those we're referring to, so no precious innocent feelings are hurt? Grow a ******* shell. Chicago fans should be embarassed by that display. It was classless. That doesn't mean every single fan is classless. Chicago fans should be proud of the fantastic parade and celebration following their Cup win. That doesn't mean every single fan was a model of good sportsmanship and grace in victory. Did you run around the internet telling everyone praising the Hawk fans then not to make generalizations?

First of all, no matter what the circumstances of his departure were, it's still classless to jeer a former player on a night you're supposed to be honoring them. It's a sports rivalry, not a ******* holy war. (And at the time of the trade, and even now, it's barely a legit rivalry. Though I guess Chicago fans would have a different perspective.) Boo him as a player, fine. There's a time and place for it, but last night was not it. If you can't show some respect and appreciation, at least remain silent. If you can't even do that, you're an ass. End of story. Secondly, unless you can actually produce some evidence no one is going to believe any nonsense about Chelios negotiating his own trade. I'm sure he wanted to go to a contender. At the time that meant Detroit, Colorado, New Jersey, or Dallas (and maybe St.Louis). I think I even remember Holland and Co. wanting to talk to him in person, to make sure he was willing to play here. But I've seen nothing to suggest he was guilty of anything more than changing his mind about never playing for Detroit. The unsubstantiated accusations sound even more petty and ridiculous than the jeering last night. As for the picture, Chelios was a Wings player at the time the picture was taken, and the teams were actually playing later that night. Maybe it was a superstition thing. And are Chicago fans really criticizing Chelios for taking the Cup to his hometown, like every other player does with their Cup day?

40-50 points IS a 2nd line center. Maybe not for a typical cup contender, but league wide it is. But even if you move Flip to the third line, bringing in a center, especially a playmaking center like Richards, is dumb. We have Pav and Hank if we don't want Flip centering the 2nd line. What we lack is a pure sniper, as even Mule isn't doing that job all that well. Richards is scoring pretty well so far this year, but he's a career 20-25 goal guy. We need a 35-40 guy. But with 10 forwards already signed, Eaves and Miller cheap and well-liked by coaches, and guys like Mursak, Tatar, I.Flip, and Emmerton doing well in GR I really doubt we see anything significant in our forwards. Though I wouldn't mind us doing something crazy like moving Flip and Happy in favor of someone like Semin, Parise, or Nash. Might not have a choice, very few studs available. Weber and Doughty are pipe dreams, and other RFAs like Seabrook, Yandle, etc are extremely unlikely. Kaberle, Pitkanen, McCabe, Markov, and Jovanovski (maybe Ehrhoff) would be possible options, but it's still a thin crop, and very few really capable of really taking over Nick's role, much less at near the same level. If Nick retires, no matter who we sign, our second and third pairs are going to have to take up a lot of the slack. I wouldn't be too surprised if we let Kindl and/or Smith take the offensive role, and brought in someone like Gill to play a shutdown role.

I disagree. I saw maybe a few penalties that might have taken away scoring chances, and probably 20 or so that could have been called that meant nothing. I guess it depends on what you consider a 'missed call'. And it's an equally slippery slope when you start calling everything. There are tons of minor hooks and holds that at the right time can take away a scoring chance, but if you call those and want to be consistent, you have to call all those same plays even when they don't impact the play. Same for interference. The problem with that is if you actually call everything, then you get half of every game played 3 on 3. They literally can't call it all, so in that respect those tighter rules actually contribute to the inconsistency everyone complains about. Last night certainly wasn't the best officiating, but it wasn't even close to the worst either. I wouldn't even consider it bad by today's (albeit terribly low) standards. I thought it was a good example of letting the ticky-tack BS go without the game looking like one of Jacques Lemaire's wet dreams.

And if you think last night was anything like the mid/late 90s you need to go back and watch some games from that era. No one wants a return of the neutral zone trap/left wing lock, but the game is better without calling a hook every time a stick blade brushes a jersey sleeve. Yeah, the officials let a lot go last night. 90% of it had no effect on the play. There have been SO many games in the last few years that were called much worse. I would much rather see a game like last night than see 8 meaningless plays whistled while 8 other identical plays are let go in the same game.

I actually liked the way the game was called. At least, better than what we get a lot of games. There was a fair amount of clutching, but not like late-90's level, and it was called even on both sides. Chicago took advantage and played very aggressive defensively. It made the game more exciting IMO.

And there are times players are awarded assists without really doing anything to deserve them. There are times players deserve assists but don't get them. Hell, players can score goals without really doing anything. Hits, giveaways, and takeaways are all subjectively awarded. Stats only tell part of the story. So what. You still only bothered to mention the stats that worked in favor of your argument. Somehow I doubt you'd have left it out if he was a +9.

Funny how you left out that he's -9.