Buppy

We could potentially have as much as $2 million to offer, and I think he'd be worth it. But with so few decent young defensemen available this summer, I think there's a good chance someone offers him more than that. I'd love it, but the chance of getting him at 1.5 or less has got to be close to zero.

I remember them talking about that when he was wearing the lower face shield after the broken jaw, but not the season with the eye injury. I don't know why it's such a hard thing for people to just admit that Cleary had a sub-par season a couple years ago, and it wasn't because of injuries. So now it wasn't even the injury it was the equipment he had to wear after the injury. What's next, distracted by a piece of tissue on his chin after he cut himself shaving? f***, I'm not telling the villagers to grab their pitchforks. I just said the guy wasn't fighting through injuries two years ago, he just had a down year.

Flip is a playmaker. As such, he needs players capable of finishing to really produce. No one is claiming he's an all-star. Unless you're talking about elite players, then talent can certainly be 'wasted' by being used in a too-limited role. Most players need an opportunity in the top lines before they start producing like top line players. Those 'flashes' are what earn the opportunity, and Flip has shown more than a few. Performing well once you get the opportunities is what keeps you there. Flip has done that as well, IMO. With the personnel we have, I think we'd be better off with Flip centering the third line, but I don't know how anyone who has watched the guy play could say he doesn't deserve a shot at a top line role.

3rd line? Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Franzen. 1:45/game on the PP. Even playing on the third line was with players like Flip, Hudler, and Sammy. He had a poor year. He was not fighting through injuries all season. He was not stuck with poor linemates. He just had a poor season (in relation to what we were hoping to get from him). For the record, I'm not saying he's a poor player, or that we should get rid of him if we could. I said he was not fighting injuries 2 years ago, and still had a bad year. Those are facts. I said he, or someone else, will get stuck on the third line and their production will suffer for it. (Something you apparently agree with from your statement about Cleary... even if it wasn't accurate.) Of course, these are things that people like you continually omit. You make emotional statements without any factual foundation or research to support your arguments. Rather than admitting you have a weak argument, you don't bother to check if you even have an argument, nor try to understand what it is you're arguing against. Good work.

Makarov and Larionov?

Again, it's not so much about Bert being worth the money so much as we didn't need him. He adds next to nothing to this team. Half the guys you're comparing him to offer much more than just scoring, and some are significantly younger. I would much rather have Clutterbuck than Bert, and he'll earn almost 600k less than Bert this year. Neil also adds much more, and is still a few years younger (though I wouldn't really want him at his price either). I'd probably take Ruutu @ 1.3 over Bert too, though I'd prefer someone younger and cheaper. Bernier isn't great, but he's only 25 and at least he hits people. We didn't need another 3rd rate scorer at any price, much less spending $2 mil on a 35 year old for two years.

That was the '07-08 season. 3 years ago. Two years ago he played 74 games. I don't recall the actual injury, but it was early in the year. He was pretty much healthy for the majority of the season. Franzen and Homer are nothing alike. Bert is much closer to Homer than Mule is.

To be fair, there are also plenty of non-fighters in the league that don't really belong here.

I'd rather just get Helm, Abby, and Eaves signed, keep Ritola and spend the rest on the best defenseman we can get. Ritola needs more than a seat in the press box if we're going to keep him. Give him a chance and if he doesn't pan out, then we can try to trade him for someone like this. I would rather have Eaves over any of the other FAs in that price range. Miller, Konopka, Nystrom, Winchester, Pyatt, Artyhukin, and probably a few other I'm forgetting would be good backup options if we can't get Eaves.

Cleary wasn't really injured two years ago. He just had a poor year and struggled to find his place. Maybe he'll do well this year, maybe not. We don't really have the ice time to go around, someone is going to suffer for it. Injuries will certainly open up some time, but who's to say if it will be enough or the right injuries. Flip, Hudler, and Bert all face the same problem. We got 40 ES goals from Happy-Flip-Sammy a couple years ago, with a significantly better top 6 in front of them. We got 25 this past year from Draper-Helm-Eaves. A realistic expectation is somewhere between those two.

Miller is probably already gone. Counting Helm and Abby, we have 12 forwards. I doubt we'll carry 14 forwards, so any outside UFA would likely mean losing either Eaves or Ritola. If we go with a full 23 man roster, I would guess Meech would get the final spot, for his ability to play defense or forward. (Not to mention, after signing Helm, Abby, Eaves, and a defenseman, we'll probably have no more than $500K to spare, if even that.)

According to this, over 70% of his ice time came with either Datsyuk or Zetterberg (almost 17% with both). Filppula, Cleary, and Holmstrom were other common linemates. The previous season in Calgary the bulk of his time came with the likes of Iginla, Borque, and Cammalleri. In Anaheim he played mostly with Getlaf, Perry, Selanne, and Ryan. He's 35 years old. A reasonable expectation, if he plays a top line role again, is for his production to decrease slightly (and he'll probably miss around 10-15 games, further lowering his output). Banking on substantial improvement from him is foolishly optimistic. I think we'll be fortunate to get another 18g and 40 points. If he plays on the third line, we'd be lucky to see much more than half of that. If anything, you are the one jumping to conclusions. Look back on his play over the season. He was a non-factor for long stretches, even though he was used almost exclusively in a top line role. He had only a handful of standout games. Look at his stats and his play over the past several seasons. Consider the general tendency for players of his age to be in decline. The team should be better overall, just by virtue of health, but Bert as an individual will likely decline, and he could very well be used in a diminished role. All of that strongly suggests that we will NOT get any better production out of him.

Well, I wouldn't really call it a crapshoot. It's not a guarantee, but it's much more than random luck. Trading away assets is also a strategy that has worked very well for years. Assuming the worst for our trade prospects while assuming the best from Bertuzzi seems a poor strategy. I don't see how Bert has 'solidified' anything on this team. In a previous post I listed some concerns, and Bert only partially addresses one of them, while mostly eliminating our options for dealing with any of the others should the need arise, and for two years besides. I still don't see three good scoring lines. Maybe a better than average 3rd depending on the combos, but that's about it. I just don't see the logic of how getting Bert instead of someone like Nystrom is any real improvement. What do you get with Bert? Another 5-10 goals? And you lose some extra speed, physicality, and defensive ability, and even the possibility of some surprise production. That alone seems a worthwhile exchange. When you add in the extra options afforded by an extra million in cap space it seems an obvious choice to me. I think Kenny is being a little too conservative here, too complacent. He likes familiar faces, I think that's obvious. In this case, I think he just bought the comfort of familiarity, and is banking too heavily on internal improvements. But we will see I guess, nothing can be done about it now.

1.) No he didn't. His best stretch was 10 points in 8 games. 3 of those 8 were the 3 I mentioned, 3 he went scoreless. He had one 3 point game when Pav and Homer also had good games. He had a couple other multi-point games sprinkled through the season, but none where I would say he carried the team. His longest point streak was 3 games. Longest goal streak was 2. Longest point drought was 6 games. Goal drought was 19. 2.) Miss the part where I said 'regardless of value'? No matter what he was paid, or what his role was supposed to be, he played almost entirely in a top line role, and he wasn't very good at it. He was a good deal, but not a good player for the role he was in. He was all we could afford at the time, so I had no problem with it. But this year we didn't need him, we got Hudler back. He may be a good value this year if he's again in a top line role. But he will not be a particularly good player. If he's used in a lesser role, his 'value' will also decrease substantially. 3.) Of course it didn't make me right. Being right made me right. Saying it just expressed how absurd I thought the original statement was. Bert never really 'carried' anything, much less for a stretch of 8 games. He had a handful of decent games. Far, far, far from the saviour some are claiming he was. Honestly now, can anyone come up with a single argument in Bert's favor that doesn't center around his value relative to his cap hit? (Something we won't know until we see how he actually produces.) Helm, Eaves, and Miller were all better value/point than he was, and brought other skills beyond that. But we don't need or want a whole team full of them.

That was me being subtly cheeky...Chara being a Euro and all.

I think you're all confusing a couple rules. Even without the instigator rule, it would still be 100% impossible to force another player into a fight. Players just wouldn't get a penalty for trying. The rule you'd really need removed is the aggressor rule. For obvious reasons, that rule could never be removed. Removing the instigator wouldn't do anything. As I've said before, if retalliation actually had a preventative effect, the downside of taking an instigator would be far outweighed by the benefits. But since you still can't just mercilessly pummel a guy, the risks of being hurt in a fight are too insignificant to be any deterrent. But as a general rule, more aggressive/dangerous hits/cheap shots are more likely to cause injury. It might not be perfect, but neither is anything else. The result needs to be considered when determining punishment, not as the only factor, but just a factor. You do something illegal, it's bad. Do something illegal and hurt someone because of it, it's worse. Not saying that they should start suspending players for hooking when someone falls awkwardly and sprains a knee, but aggressive penalties like head-hunting or knee-on-knee type stuff should draw extra discipline for more severe consequences. I would suggest compensatory payments to the injured player over longer suspensions though. Just a little something extra to make players more conscious of their actions.

I've admitted on several occasions that Bert was a bargain last season, and that it's not a bad price for someone of his ability. My point is that it doesn't matter. We didn't need a 'bargain' or an eigth potential top 6 forward when we would have been just fine with just a 4th liner grinder and a bunch of extra cap space. But I'll address the bargain aspect anyway. Something you can't ignore is that there's only so much ice time to go around. Only so many spots in the top 6. Pav and Hank can't play with everyone. Everyone can't get 3 minutes of PP time. Hudler could score 70 points, Flip could get 60, Bert, Homer, and Cleary could get 50. But they won't. Not all of them at least. Lack of ice time and opportunity WILL mean that someone doesn't get the numbers they're capable of. How much of a bargain is Bert going to be if he gets stuck on the third line and only puts up 13 goals and 22 points? How about another 40 point season from Flip? Or 15 goals from Cleary? Or Hudler? Whether you want to admit it or not, PP time and the quality of their linemates will play a big role in the production of all those players. What good is getting Bert at a minor discount when it means we're overpaying for Flip's production? All anyone can say in favor of Bert is 'bargain'. But he hasn't scored one point yet, so you have no idea if he will be a bargain or not. You can't just add his full potential without considering the opportunities he'll cost others, nor could you realistically expect him to fulfill his potential from a dimished role. And at this stage, you can't expect improvement either, at least nothing substantial. At best, we could expect similar numbers if he plays another full season on the top lines. Even at that, his presence alone would be costing someone else like Flip or Cleary an opportunity for increased production. And assuming that anyone's production would improve by being moved to the third line is preposterous. Bert, as an individual, may turn out to be 'worth' his contract. But in terms of his impact on the team, I really can't see it improving the team in any meaningful way. Adding Bert gives a little extra depth in case of injuries. But that's about the only positive I see. But I can also see it coming back to hurt us by limiting our other options. He costs us the opportunity for a much bigger improvement later in the season, and possibly costs us a valuable grinder. You say we could still add Nystrom or someone similar, but I don't really see it. We're running out of space very quick, and that's assuming a full $2 million increase in the cap. People are expecting minimal raises for Helm and Abby, which is far from certain. A defenseman of any kind of quality is going to cost a decent chunk. If we want someone like Nystrom it could mean we have to sacrifice someone like Eaves or Ritola. And while getting a top end player at the deadline wouldn't be guaranteed, it wouldn't be impossible either. There's always a good number of players available, many being just salary dumps to be had for bargain prices. Nor would we necessarily have to target the best players. A couple mid-tier players could also help considerably more than Bert likely would, and might not cost much in trade. Furthermore, we might not even need to add anything. Again, I just think Kenny missed the mark on this one. Our top 6 (at least what I expect to be our top 6) lacks speed. We still don't have as many true goal scorers as we should. We lack a tough crease-clearing defenseman. We have a question mark in goal. We're heavily reliant on againg players. And most importantly, our options for addressing any of those are pretty limited for the next two years. Bert doesn't solve any of those problems, and barely even helps the goal scoring. At the very least, we could have had the opportunity to solve a couple of those via trades this year, even if only temporarily. Maybe none of those things will turn out to be real problems. We can hope at least. Unfortunately, that's all we can do.

I think it has more to do with the fact that you specify 'gritty North American' as opposed to simply 'gritty'. It suggests that if there were two equally gritty players, one being Euro and the other NA, you would prefer the NA, based solely on nationality. Your stereotyping of Euros also lends to that. If you're going to make generalizations, you have to live with the consequences. In this case, it means people assuming you have an anti-Euro bias. And there is a world of difference in those two statements. The second implies the slang form of 'hater', rather than literal 'hate'. And McIlrath will never be Pronger. Not even close. He'd be lucky if he could get close to Chara level.

The blindside doesn't bother me so much as the fact that he didn't get any part of him besides the head.

The Richards hit on Booth was dirty as hell, shouldn't be one there. I personally liked the Weaver and Mitchell hits. The fact that they were both against Blackhawks is just a bonus. Boychuk's on Ellis was great too.

They have to make some trades no matter what, and a team would have to be stupid to offer Niemi so much that the Hawks wouldn't match, like over $4 mil. Cup notwithstanding, it'd be risky to pay that much for Niemi even without giving up a 1st and a 3rd round pick (or more).

With a $2 mil cap increase, we have about $4.6 million left to sign Helm, Abby, a 13th forward, a 7th defenseman, and possibly a 23rd player. Also seems that neither Kindl nor Ritola have secure spots, so that's another $1.4 that may be available with two more spots open. Helm and Abby are a given, and I can't see them costing much under $2 million. Let's be generous and say 1.85, and take Kindl and Ritola out for now, leaving ~$4.15M left. Looking at the defense, we have the following options for the last two spots: Kindl $883,333 Janik $512,500 Meech RFA, est. $500-550K Lilja UFA, est. $1-1.5M Or some other UFA, at probably no more than $1.5M So we're looking at anywhere from ~$1-2.4M. I would lean strongly towards keeping Kindl, and getting either Lilja or someone similar. So that would put us at the low end of that scale. But again being generous, let's say we're left with $2.2 for two forwards, and possibly a 23rd player. I wouldn't want to lose Ritola either, before we see what he can do. So that puts us down to $1.7. I'd really want to see Eaves back, and that probably pushes us under $1M left, with 1 open spot on the roster. I think we really need to keep something in reserve, even if just a few hundred thousand. If we bring in someone else, it almost has to be in place of Eaves or Ritola, or, if we get good deals for everyone else, some goon playing for minimum wage. In other words, nothing worth getting excited about. I guess I'd be ok with Nystrom in place of Eaves if he came for a similar price, but I'd prefer Eaves. Other than that, I'd just hope we can at least save something for the deadline.

With the return of Hudler and the odds favoring a much healthier lineup, the offense should already be much better than it was last season. Add to that the fact that as long as we are healthy, someone like Bert or Flip is going to be on the third line, and missing out on PP time, and thus not scoring up to their full potential; then the difference in offense between someone like Nystrom and Bert is negligible. 5-6 goals isn't going to mean anything. Furthermore, you're both ignoring the main reason for not signing Bert right now; the cap savings. We had an opportunity to be ~$2 million under the cap while still icing a solid team capable of rolling four lines. The trade deadline is roughly 3/4ths of the way through the season, so that money would be worth $8 million in salary at that point. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to add someone like Semin (some rumors have him heading out of Washington) for a playoff run? Or maybe a big name defenseman? Or possibly a goalie if Howie falters and Ozzie can't pick up the slack? Or a couple extra players to shore up any weaknesses that develop? Even if we really think we need another borderline top-6 'scorer', why not at least wait until free agency opens to explore what other options are out there? Especially considering that Bert himself said he wasn't interested in signing anywhere else. Could get a better deal? Who knows. Now we'll just have to watch what other teams can get. Bert was coming off 44 points in 66 games, and we got him for $1.5. Willy for the same after a 19g, 48 point season. After two poor years, Afinogenov signed for $800k. Prospal went for $1.1 after 19g/45 points. Even Comrie, after just one bad year, signed for $1.25. You act like it's unprecedented for someone to sign a 'bargain' deal. Signing Bert now, and for a two year deal, is essentially a statement that Holland doesn't think we can improve this group of forwards in the next two years. Unless we get a big jump in the cap, or blow up the roster, we don't even have the option of any meaningful changes, whether it turns out we need them or not. I'm not saying this move is destroying the team or will for sure prevent us from winning anything. I love Kenny and still think he's the best in the game. But I think we had more options, and better options. I think this time he made a mistake.

Way to ignore the other 5 guys I suggested. But I'll admit I wasn't perfectly clear on these three guys. My point was that all of them could offer similar offensive potential, and potentially come cheaper, so if that was the direction we wanted to go, they would be better options, IMO. My preference would be one of the other guys though, hence the comment on improving the 4th line, the emphasis on Nystrom in the first post, the other players I mentioned, and the 'maybe' in front of those three. But in regards to your points on those three: None are any worse than Bert defensively, all take fewer penalties so that's at least a plus. Comrie and Higgins have had injury problems, but so has Bert. All of them are 5+ years younger. Comrie scored only a few less goals than Bert in about half as many games. He made $1.25 last year, and hasn't really done anything to warrant a raise. I don't know about his attitude. He's only 3 years removed from his last 20+ goal season. (His 3rd in a row, including 1 30 goal season) Higgins is also 3 years removed from a career best 27 goal season. (Again, it was 3 straight 20+ years) He's also been either a primary or secondary PKer everywhere he's played, so he's not 'hideous' defensively. Try looking at something other than +/-. He also hits a decent amount. He made $2.25 this past year, but after 2 sub-par seasons in a row, he might be available at a discount. We've had some success with Cleary, Miller, and Eaves, Higgins would be another project, but a decent reward if he came cheap enough. He might still command $2M+, that's part of the 'maybe'. He might be next season's Afinogenov. Just not with us. Tanguay is only 2 years removed from 41 points in 50 games, and 3 removed from being a point+/game player. Not really a goal scorer, but I'd argue that Bert isn't any better at this stage in his career. In the past 6 years, Bert has played 382 games, and scored 92 goals (0.24/game). Tanguay has played 429, scored 120 (0.28/game). He's also better at pretty much everything else. Little chance he would come (here in particular) for less than Bert, but again you never know. All three are younger options with similar talent, who might have been available cheaper than Bert. Again, I would have preferred just a 4th-liner, but if we really wanted to go with a scorer, we could have at least waited to see what our other options were, and if we could have gotten something similar (or better) for less. But now we're stuck with Bert for 2 years, so not only do we risk missing out on someone this year, but next year as well.

Cleary has a career high of 20 goals, those coming with significant top 6 play, mostly with Zetterberg, also with the likes of Filppula and Hudler. The last time Bert broke 20 was 5 years ago as a top 6 forward in Vancouver. Both rely heavily on their linemates to generate offense. What makes you think either could be productive without a real playmaker on the line? With that line, we'd be lucky to get 15 goals from either. I wouldn't expect more than 10-12. Abdelkader has some promise, but he hasn't been so impressive to warrant much confidence. If he hits 10 goals we should be happy. That line might not be terrible defensively, but they wouldn't be shutting anyone down either. The lack of any decent puck carrier would mean playing dump and chase. Bert is way too slow and too soft along the boards to help much there, but Cleary and Abs would do alright; just not enough to be any real threat on offense, or even generate consistent pressure or wear anyone down. Abby is not very fast, Bert is slow as dirt, and even Cleary might lose some speed after all those injuries. I could see them getting pinned in the defensive zone for big stretches, either wearing out our defensemen or giving up a lot of goals. They could hit, but not so much that it would have any real impact. They'd bang in a handful of goals, but not enough to be considered a scoring line, certainly not enough that we could depend on it. So...average to below-average defense, near-zero puck possession, mediocre scoring, marginal hitting, and absolutely nothing special from any of them. If that's really what you all think we were looking for from our third line then please tell me again why giving Bert $2 mil for the next 2 years was such a great signing.