Buppy

So Holland lost 61 goals that will be replaced by 40 goals. Who knows, maybe the SCRUBS can replace some goals. They'll also be less defensive and won't be put out in key situation (maybe not PK worth the damn). Loss of depth hurts this team. I don't want to make personal attacks, but I am surprised that someone here as long as you just can't understand that. This team is worse with Kovalchuk. Here's the better linup without Kovalchuk, the way Holland he will likely go... and thank god he's the GM of this team! God I hope you get it this time! Well this is getting fun now. Let's look at those rosters: First, you forgot to pay the goalies. That's $2.2. So roster A is $1.5 over cap. B is $0.1 under. But you also didn't increase the cap. Reports are that it will go up close to a million. $57.7 is a number that's been quoted, so using that, it puts A at $0.6 over, B $1.0 under. So, working on Roster A. Subtract Hudler, now we're $2.3 under cap. Turn those scrubs you inexplicably hired into Helm (1.2), Eaves (1.0), and Miller (1.0), and we're left with $0.6 for another forward for the 4th line. Despite what you may think, cheap forwards that can play are available. There were about a dozen players making 600k or less that scored over 10 goals. Quite a few more that likely would have had they played full seasons. Many of them are solid defensively, capable of killing penalties. We had 3 of them in fact. It's not a stretch to think we could find a solid 4th liner for that price. Moreover, it's possible we could lower some of the other salaries a little, maybe freeing up another 300-500k which greatly expands the range of players available. So now, we lose: Bertuzzi - 18 goals (if we're lucky, aging and an injury history...) Filppula - 20 goals (it's a bit of a stretch, especially if you bury him on the third line, but ok...) Hudler - 23 goals 61 goals We gain: Miller - 10 goals SCRUB - 10 goals Kovalchuk - 40 goals 60 goals. Looks fairly even at first, BUT Kovy would make Datsyuk and Homer better. Bert makes them worse. So add another 10 goals at least for that. But you're also probably worrying about a 'lack of depth'. Thinking with Roster B, if someone in the top 6 goes down, Flip or Happy can step in. And if it's Bert, Homer, or Cleary, yeah, we'd be alright. Franzen? Not so much. Pav or Hank, that's still trouble. Just like this year, if one of those three were hurt, we'd struggle to score goals. We couldn't make more than one good line. With Kovy we get another premier scorer. Someone who has proven he can be a threat by himself. So now if Homer or Cleary go down, pretty much anyone can step in and do ok, as they'll have 2 big players with them. Kovy or Mule goes down, we'd still have one excellent line, and another that wouldn't be any worse than your 'top' line in Roster B. Losing Pav or Hank would still hurt like hell, but again, we'd have one legit top line, and a second anchored by Kovy, one of the top snipers in the league. Rather than losing depth, we GAIN depth in a vital area. Nothing we can do will insure us against a rash of injuries like we had this year. So no point even worrying about it. If it happens again, we'll just have to hope it's not so many key players and/or it happens early enough to allow us time to recover. The same is true with whatever roster we put together. Would the above be better than using the $1-2 million in available space as reserve for a deadline move? Or to upgrade Lilja? Or maybe Eaves or Bertuzzi? Maybe, maybe not. $3 mil isn't really enough to get an impact player, but we could get lucky. Reserve for the deadline certainly isn't a bad idea, and I wouldn't hate it if that's what we do, but it's not a guaranteed win either. May not be anyone available for what we'd have to trade that would fill whatever hypothetical need we'd have (which, with roster B, would probably be a scorer). You also have only a short time for the new player(s) to gel with the team. 2 legit scoring lines + 2 legit grinder/energy lines > 1 legit scoring line, 2 mediocre scoring lines + 1 legit grind line Or if you rearrange your roster B lines to bolster the top 6: 2 legit scoring lines + 2 legit grinder/energy lines > 2 legit scoring lines, 1 legit grind line + 1 nothing line that can't score or grind Team w/Kovy > Team w/o My worry is that we'll end up with Roster B, but without the space to add anything at the deadline. That is what I think is really the most likely. A season of posts debating if Nick is worth $6 mil, 'Bert sucks' threads, 'trade Flip' threads, 'Hudler is awful' threads, and 'Why did we pay Winchester $2 mil? We could have kept Eaves for half that and he's better!' threads.

You're a fool if you think a top 6 of Pav, Hank, Kovy, Mule, Homer, and Cleary is '1.5 lines'. That would arguably be the best top 6 in the league, and far better than what we're likely to have. As far as 'three lines of offensive prowess to fear'...that's even less likely than signing Kovy. We tried that this year. Willy and Leino. Put Cleary on a third line and he's no better than Abby, Helm, or Eaves. Flip can't carry a line by himself. Bert or Homer wouldn't be effective. Hudler maybe, but without decent linemates, probably not. If we try three lines again I really doubt it will work any better. The second line will probably be Cleary-Hank-Bert again. It sucked this season, it will continue to suck next year. A third line of Whoever-Flip-Hudler will look nice, create a bunch of chances, but not get much done. And if you put Flip or Happy on the second line, you just make the 3rd worse...really no better than what we could get with cheap players like Miller and Eaves. And the top 6 still isn't as good as it would be with Kovy. If Kenny really isn't looking at anything beyond some grit for the 4th line, it's because he doesn't think it's possible to do anything else. Maybe he's already planned on giving 6-7 mil to Nick, and/or 2 mil to Helm. Maybe he has no interest in another long term deal and/or he thinks it would still take 8 mil or more to get Kovy. I trust him. If he doesn't think we can improve in any meaningful way beyond Hudler, then I can accept that. But I don't know Kenny or what his true plans are. I don't know Nick, or Kovy, or any other players. Neither do you. For all I know Nick will pull a Stevie and sign for half his true worth or less. For all you know Kovy turned down 10 mil from Atlanta because he really wants to play here. For all anyone on this board knows, Hudler doesn't really plan on coming back and he's just posturing to get himself an offer from another KHL team. But what I do know is that if we could pull off something like I suggested, the team would be better for it.

I'm officially rooting for the Habs now. Just amazing. I'm no Pens hater, but man, how can you not root for a team that comes back from a 3-1 hole, winning game 7 on the road! TWICE! in one year! against first the PT winner! then the defending champs!! GO HABS!!

No, you looked at the roster and said 'how can I twist this to make it look like Kovy is bad for the team, then ignored points that contradicted your pre-drawn conclusion. Much like you now ignore my rebuttal in favor of taking an entirely different argument. But since you still didn't read the original post, you don't realise that I already addressed the salaries. Even if you replace Hudler with a minimum wage 4th liner, that forward unit is still an upgrade over what we had this year. No any deeper, but not any less either. There are really only two big parts of my roster that are borderline, Nick and Kovy. I allocated $9.275 million for Hudler, Homer, Helm, Abby, Eaves, Miller, Ritola, and Lilja. That's the bottom 6, one top 6 roleplayer, and a 3rd pair defenseman. We can get that for that price. It could mean we don't have the scoring depth added by Hudler, but it also increases our primary scoring and gives us another dominant player making the top 6 less susceptible to injury. Worth a slight loss of scoring depth IMO. So the big points are what Nick is willing to sign for (and how low the team is willing to offer, personally I think he gets $6 if he comes back), and whether or not we'd be willing to take on a third long term deal (which is what it would take to Kovy at close to that price). Neither is very likely, and if you just want to argue that it couldn't happen, fine. But you just can't say we would be worse with Kovalchuk. Homer isn't the right style for a 3rd/4th line. I would hate seeing him used as just a PP specialist for a cheap price, with limited 4th line time. But he can still offer something to the top line 5 on 5. He scored 12 ES goals. 2 less than Bert in 300 less minutes, playing with similar linemates. Cleary is better 5v5, but not by a lot. Bert is not any better (arguably worse even) ES, and not even close on the PP. And I kept Huds because he's a better goal scorer, and Flip has a much higher trade value. But either way I wouldn't complain. Depends on the length of the deal and where he wants to play. If he wants to go to a contender, he'll probably go long term for 5-6.

Obviously you just looked at the roster and didn't read the post. So I'll only bother to address the bolded portion. That roster is the same as this year with the following changes: Williams = Abdelkader Maltby = Ritola Bertuzzi = Hudler Filppula = Kovalchuk Every one of those moves is an upgrade. How is that 'losing depth'?

I don't know what kind of 'depth' you think we can get, or what it is you think we need. If it's secondary scoring, Helm, Eaves, Miller, and Abdelkader can do that just fine. And being RFAs, we can likely get them cheaper than other similar players. I don't know if you expect to somehow fill the 3rd line with 20 gosl scorers. Frankly we'll be fortunate to fill the top 6 with guys who'll put up 20+. Homer will be a year older and hasn't played a full season 4 years. Hudler was good when he was here, but can he play on a top line and/or will he need to readjust to the NHL game? Bertuzzi, for all that everyone loves him after he ended the season with a couple good games, still only scored 18 goals this year. 6 more than Eaves, while playing 17 more games, a lot more minutes, a lot more PP time, and with a lot better linemates. Flip is very good, but not a goal scorer. Exactly what about any 3 of those 4 guys screams 'championship caliber top 6'? What could we really expect out of any of them on a third line? If we could somehow squeeze 3-4 million in cap room, then add Flip or Hudler to that to get Kovy, we would be stupid not to. Of course, that's easier said than done. We'd need quite a few guys to sign friendly deals. Highly unlikely at best. No doubt scoring depth is great. Especially great if we're plagued by key injuries. But getting that depth is even more unlikely than getting Kovy. FORWARDS Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / * Ilya Kovalchuk ($6.000m) Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Jiri Hudler ($2.875m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m) Kris Draper ($1.583m) / * Tomas Holmstrom ($1.250m) / * Darren Helm ($1.000m) * Justin Abdelkader ($0.900m) / * Drew Miller ($0.800m) / * Patrick Eaves ($0.800m) * Mattias Ritola ($0.650m) DEFENSEMEN Brian Rafalski ($6.000m) / * Nicklas Lidstrom ($4.500m) Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) * Andreas Lilja ($1.000m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m) Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) GOALTENDERS Chris Osgood ($1.417m) / Jimmy Howard ($0.717m) CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS ROSTER: 22; PAYROLL: $57.563m; CAP ROOM: $0.137m BONUSES: $0.000m Perhaps unrealistic to hope for 9 guys to sign for a bit under market value. If you think the above isn't feasible, then you spread some of Kovy's $6 around for raises, and you're left with basically just enough to keep Flip. How would that be better? If you think my numbers are attainable, what would be a better way to spend that $6 mil? Upgrading the defense maybe. ($4m for Volchenkov to replace Lilja...I'd say yes to that.) Goalie? Debateable. Forwards? Flip + $3.8m FA or Kovy + Eaves/Miller. Maybe, maybe not. Finally, my roster leaves either Cleary, Hudler, or Homer playing on the 3rd line. Even if we were to lose say Hudler and maybe Miller, replace them with cheap 4th liners to free up $2 mil+ for raises I'd still argue that it would be a damn good line up. I just don't see how adding Kovy could ever be a bad thing. Maybe not the very best possibile, but not bad by any stretch.

He's also 35. I'd take him for Lilja money, but nothing over that.

1. Diving = embellishing. Same thing really. Nothing about that contact caused that reaction from Nabby. Same for the call against Abby that wasn't included. 3. I think Vlasic gets a 'dive' label for complaining the ref afterward. 4. Yeah, pretty good hook to the hands, but it really didn't cause the fall, unless you have some way to explain how a little tug on the left leg caused Pavelski's right leg to stop working. Still a penalty either way though.

Fallible should not mean 'crap'. Refs should absolutely be held accountable for poor performance. Yes, the game is fast, and players are selling things all the time. But NHL refs should be the top 100 or so in the world at what they do. The refs in the playoffs should be the best of those. 'Suck' is not a standard we should find acceptable. We should demand that the refs do their job better. Demand that they don't make reputation calls, or calls based on what they think must have happened because they couldn't see, or make-up calls because they know they screwed up an earlier one, or calls based on fan reaction. How about not randomly calling hooking when a guy gets tapped on the gloves, but there's obviously no effect on the play. Maybe call cross checking in the crease whenever it happens, and not just when someone falls on a goalie or a team 'deserves' a call. Rule changes should also be made. Intent to blow = Intent to suck. Distinct kicking motion. Head shots. Diving. How about a rule so you don't call hooking when the 'hookee' pins the 'hooker's' stick with his arm. How about trying to better define interference, and training refs using video examples. Standards for reasonable distance from puck and time elapsed after the puck is gone. Try to get all the refs on the same page, and let the teams know as clear as possible what the standards are. It will always be somewhat subjective, but that doesn't mean we can't improve. I don't believe this is the best we can do. And why not have some type of review system? Maybe something like the challenge in the NFL. Probably wouldn't be feasible for missed calls, but it would work for bad ones.

Regarding the first bolded portion; it's a tired cliche. Of course, by default, the team that wins the Cup overcomes whatever obstacles they had to face, but that does not mean they could have overcome any obstacle. It just means they were fortunate enough not to face anything they couldn't. Reverse the calls in game 2. I don't mean make them even, I mean call the game in our favor. Call all the dives on SJ. Miss the penalties on Kronwall and Flip and Cleary. Could the Sharks still have won that game? I doubt it. If Murray and Vlasic (I think) had been given majors and thrown out of the game, could the Sharks have won? Call the Sharks for knocking down Cleary in the crease in OT in game 3 would we have scored? In game one, call Setoguchi for diving, and miss the other call that gave them the 5 on 3. Do the Sharks still win? Do all that and I think we win 4-1, and the Sharks have a legit complaint about the refs. Wouldn't change anything about how we played or they played. Wouldn't make us any better or them any worse. Things went the Sharks way this series. They weren't better by any significant margin. They weren't more resilient. They just benefitted from the breaks in a pretty evenly played series. For the second part, something needs to be said for the principle of good sportsmanship. I know diving, embellishing, pleading for calls, etc is prevalent in most sports. But there is something wrong with the mentality that says this is ok. The 'if you're not cheating you're not trying', win at all costs philosophy needs to go. Selling calls and diving should be one of the harshest penalties. Just below blatant recklessness. Sure, Draper's career would be over. Mule would spend a lot of time in the box until he learned his lesson. But the game would be better for it. The game would be much better if players tried to make plays as hard as they sometimes try to draw calls. Make diving/embellishing nullify the original penalty (if there was one). Give the PP to the other team. Misconduct to the offending player if there was no original penalty. Keep track of the divers, and suspend repeat offenders. 3 dives by one team in one game; eject the coach, fine the team, and take a goal away from the offending team (or give one to the other team if the offenders don't have any).

BS. Once a team 'learns' how the refs are calling the game, it's already too late. This is exactly the apologist attitude that gives us the officiating we have. The Wings nor anyone else should have ot worry about being called for interference (twice, in one game) when a goalie dives. The Sharks shouldn't get called for an obvious makeup when a player gets pushed into the net. Players shouldn't be called for holding because a player that was checked perfectly legally falls backward instead of forward. If the refs are going to call interference when a player gets pushed down in the crease, they should call it whether the player lands on the goalie or not. Bert shouldn't be penalized for letting a Shark player pin his stick against the boards. If the players have to, within the course of a game, allow the refs to make enough mistakes in order to adjust their game to avoid those mistakes, then already too many mistakes have been made. And worse, forcing players to adjust away from their play style, even though it may be perfectly legal, is itself unfair. Refs should not be so fickle, so inconsistent. That should not be acceptible.

So who do you suggest for a third line that brings scoring touch, grit, size, and forchecking at a price that doesn't result in a 2nd line that is probably worse than your hypothetical 3rd line?

Yes, Stuart's head shot should have been called. Though I'd suggest that if Murray's had not preceded it, or at least been called, Stuie wouldn't have sought retalliation. I took the refs letting Stuart's go as an admission that they F'd up the Murray hit. And like I say in pretty much any officiating discussion, there are always missed calls on both sides. Picking out one here and there doesn't make it even. We have seen VS announcers talking about the terrible calls in game 2. We even had Bettman come close to admitting that refs can make mistakes. This series was not called evenly. I'm not saying that the Wings would have won. Aside from game 4, it was pretty evenly played. The Sharks capitalized better on their opportunities, but they also unfairly had more of them. I'd say the Sharks probably would have won anyway. What really bothers me though is that since we can't ever get any kind of consensus, we have no real hope of improvement. Losers always cry about the problem, but in a biased way. Winners always say it was fair. Truth is, it's hardly ever perfectly balanced. Even if it was though, who cares? The focus should be that the officiating is terrible. It's been terrible for years, and will continue to be terrible until somebody admits that there is a problem. We should not be talking about the five missed calls on your team, and you responding with the 5 missed on ours. That's too many mistakes, and it has far too much impact on the games. The league made such a big deal about head hits this year. Murray's hit could have been used as an example to go along with the explicit definition the league came up with. But the refs let it go, and then let Stuie's response go. Being even doesn't make it good. But you don't want to admit there was a problem, because you fear it takes some validity away from your win. The league doesn't want to admit there's a problem, because they fear cries of bias or unfair play. Only the losers talk about it, and we're easily brushed aside as whiners. So it will never get any better (at least not until we get a commissioner with some balls). I hope it's not the Sharks getting shafted next round. Good luck.

Players like that don't come cheap. How do you propose building a scoring, effective 3rd line without sacrificing the potency of the top two lines? We tried 3 deep scoring this year, and that meant Bert, Willy, and Leino. Helm, Miller, and Eaves all had 10+ goals. Abby could likely do the same. Ritola might be able to. Draper could pitch in a few. With those guys we could expect around 40-50 goals. That is not bad at all for a bottom 6. We also get solid defense, great speed, and 100% effort. They may not have been great in the playoffs, but we got like 3-5 goals from our 3rd and 4th lines, that's nothing to complain about. Our top 6 was great in the playoffs. Pav and Hank played like superstars. Flip was great against Phoenix, and still solid against SJ. Bert and Mule weren't much against Phoenix, but improved against SJ. Homer played his role very well. Couldn't ask for much more in terms of their playoff performance. But if you look at the regular season, it's a different story. Obviously the injuries were a big part of it, but I think we need something in the top 6. Another true goal scorer, and probably better speed. And being the Wings, someone who can play puck possession and is defensively responsible. Pav, Hank, and Franzen are the only sure things. So that leaves 3 top 6 and 1 depth spot to fill. Options include Filppula, Cleary, and Hudler who are already signed and Homer, Maltby, Bert and Willy who are UFA. Maltby doesn't bring anything even to the bottom 6, so he should be gone unless maybe we have a little space left over for a 14th forward. Willy isn't good enough for the top 6, and not the right fit for the bottom, so he's gone. I don't think any combination of the other 5 gives us a great top 6, and they're too expensive to keep for the third without weakening the top lines. Cleary has his NTC, so he isn't going anywhere. He could fit in pretty much anywhere. Put him on the third line and he makes the bottom 6 pretty strong IMO. He could also step into a top 6 spot if someone was injured. Homer and Bert are both in their late 30s, slow, and have had numerous injury problems in recent years. Do we really want both in the top 6? Or would either fit on a 3rd line? IMO, no. I think we can only keep one of them, and I'd much prefer Homer. Flip and Happy would be ok for the final two spots, but I would rather see one of them traded. Happy is a quality goal scorer, but his speed, defense, and stregth on the boards isn't that great. Flip has the rest, but he's not much of a scorer. One would be fine, but both I think leaves us a bit weak. The problem is that there are very few really good scorers available as FAs (and we may not be able to afford them), and our tradable assets are pretty limited. So Filppula and Hudler might just be the best we can do. Especially considering that we may have a lot of work to do on the defense, and I don't think Jimmy is quite proven yet (no sophomore slump, please...please!).

My daughter's fiance is from San Jose, so I'll be 'rooting' for them. At least in a 'sort-of-care-a-little-but-whatever' way. Really the only team I don't want to win is the Pens. Not because I hate them, just because they already won one so I want to see someone new.

5 players. Stuart's expires after this year. Slightly above average, but not outrageous. NTCs are a benefit, that's it. Something to bargain with in lieu of extra money. There's some risk, but also reward. Kenny is an excellent GM, not a psychic. Maybe without the NTCs we don't have Rafi and a Cup in 08. Maybe no Cleary and no trip to the Finals last year. Or maybe we'd be better off. Who can say? At most, you could say that Rafi and Cleary have debateable value. Neither is obviously a detriment to the team, nor is it obvious that we could improve by trading them. Can't really say that they are definitively 'bad' NTCs. So he took a bit of a risk on two long term contracts in order to keep two star players here in a difficult cap situation. Had he given one to Hossa, or does another one this summer, I'll start to get worried. Two isn't bad, especially when one is Zetterberg.

Maybe a bit of an exaggeration. Maybe it's only 300. Maybe 100. Or maybe it's 600. I wasn't saying there are 500 guys hands down better. He's one of a large group of players capable of playing bottom 6 forward in the NHL. He happens to have experience with a championship team, so that raises his stock a bit. But my point is, who cares? No one. Not one GM in the league will ever say to himself, "you know what this teams needs...Tomas Kopecky". He's filler. He's a guy that you get when you don't have a lot of money, and need someone to fill a spot who can at least play the game at an NHL level. I'm not saying he's a terrible player. Hell, he's one of the 1000 best players in the world for sure. That's pretty damn impressive if you think of it that way. But the OP was suggesting (and I still don't know if it was supposed to be a joke or not) that we might miss having Kopy on this team, or even more ridiculous that we wish the Hawks didn't have him, as if he is what really makes Chicago good. It's absurd. Kopy just isn't the kind of player that anyone really cares about. Even you don't seem to care.

Most teams have a bottom 6 full of players just as good or better. Most AHL teams have several players as good or better. He may be a 'solid all around' NHL 3rd/4th liner, but there's nothing even remotely special about him. There's nothing to miss. There's nothing to want him for, because there's 500 other guys in and out of the NHL that can do the same job just as well. He's not any better than Draper. At least not so much that it would make any difference. Pav, Hank, Mule, Flip, Homer, Bert, Cleary, Helm, Abby, Miller, Eaves, Draper, May, Willy, Ritola...are we really supposed to give a s*** about a player that maybe wouldn't even make the lineup? I don't even know Chicago's roster that well, but I'd still be willing to bet that they have several players available that could replace Kopy without significantly weakening the team.

Sorry, my sarcasm detector is in the shop. I can't tell if you're trying to be serious.

That's what I thought at first, but it didn't happen in the games here.

This is the main reason I don't want both Homer and Bert back next year. The only combos that make much sense give us one good scoring line and 2 mediocre ones. And in NHL terms, 'mediocre' translates to 'gets shut down far too easily'. Datsyuk deserves far better than what you're giving him, and even though either of your 3rd lines could be decent, they'd also have huge potential to suck. We're not likely to re-create the 3-deep offense from 2008-09. Trying is only going to hurt. Bring Miller back, make 2 solid scoring lines, 2 checking lines. When Draper is done, either someone like Tatar could be ready, or we look for a FA then who maybe has some scoring touch. The only way to get great scoring depth in the cap era is with young guys out-performing their early contracts. Hudler-Zetterberg-Franzen Filppula-Datsyuk-Homer or Bert Eaves-Helm-Cleary Miller-Abdelkader-Draper/Ritola Cleary can move to the 2nd line if we need better defense, or a little more jump/speed That bottom 6 combined for 58 goals this year (though some of it was done playing in the top 6 due to injuries). That isn't bad by any stretch. Our bottom 6 in 08-09 scored 72. That third line might not be as good as Happy-Flip-Sammy, but the 4th is a sizable upgrade over Maltby-Draper-Kopy.

Pretty amusing. I was at the game, but I didn't get a great view because all the people in front of me stood up. Didn't realize how poorly Rafi played that pass. Now after watching the replay a few times, I don't think one Wing on the ice actually did the right thing. Rafi's poor coverage Willy's errant shot (looks like it might have been tipped, but still) Ericsson joining the rush for no good reason, at the end of a shift no less Abby watching Ericsson take his position, but not falling back to cover Flip watching Abby and E fight over the center spot, and not hanging back himself, then reacting slowly when the puck came out Even Jimmy was a little over-aggressive coming out of the crease (though it probably wouldn't have mattered) Pretty bad all around.

I'm not sure what it was, and maybe I'm just going crazy, but in both of the first two games, half the time the Wings would bring the puck out of the defensive zone there was a sound like a puck hitting a goalpost. Annoying as hell.

In related news, the year 1998 is proud to welcome Columbus Dispatch reporter Michael Arace. Rumor has it that the 21st century is eagerly awaiting Mr. Arace's arrival, expected within 4-5 years.

With only 5 of the 17 responding GMs believing the issue needs to be discussed, I wouldn't get your hopes up for a change any time soon.