Buppy

I don't disagree that Lebda has been better than Ericsson, but he's still a long, long way from 'great asset'. 'Not a liability' is about the best you can say about him. It's just too bad we can't send E down to GR. I think he just needs to get some confidence back. He has top 4 (maybe even top pair) ability, we just have to find out how to bring it out again.

Prior to his current deal, Flip had played 155 NHL regular season games in 3 seasons, scoring 29 goals (career high: 19) & 25 (career high: 17) assists, and 40 playoff games, scoring 8 & 8. He also played a fairly key role on a Stanley Cup Championship team. Kesler, prior to his current deal, played 158 games in 3 seasons, scoring 18 goals (career high: 10) & 26 assists (career high:13). He added 1 playoff game in which he did not have a point. He was also coming off a fairly serious injury. The salary cap when Kesler signed was $6.4 million lower than when Filppula signed. Kesler is now in the final year of his contract, while Flip has 3 more years.

So what you're suggesting is that there is reckless play that represents a threat to the safety of the players, and that this reckless play could be prevented by the 'enforcers' of the league, but they choose not to prevent it because they do not want to take a 2 minute penalty. That about it? No one is or ever will be afraid of enforcers, instigator rule or not, because there are too many players now who just aren't worried about their reputations. It is impossible to force someone to fight. All a dirty player has to do is turtle up. Refs break it up, dirty player laughs, goes about his business. Players and fans of other teams hate him, fans of his team love him. Being right, being the 'good guy', does not make you tough, nor does being tough make you right. Players policing themselves just means that the toughest guy makes the rules. What if he's an *******? Getting rid of the instigator doesn't just mean that your enforcer can go after some cheap shot artist. It also means that the other teams enforcer can go after your star players. Do you really want some goon running up throwing haymakers at Nick or Pav or Hank in the hopes of injuring them, or at the very least getting them off the ice for 5 minutes?

What Franzen has already done has no bearing on even this season, much less 8 years from now. How many goals has he scored in the next 10 years? I count zero so far. Potential to stay the same is no different than potential to improve. And when you are evaluating a contract you have to consider all the terms of the deal, including length. The Wings made a much larger commitment to Franzen, commensurate with his higher production. The same is true for Zetterberg over Franzen. And your Hossa proposal wouldn't work. Even assuming we could get him that low for a 1 year deal, you'd still leave us two forwards short. So at the very least, you'd have to get rid of another player making $1.5 million (or more), and add three players at league minimum (or whatever salary you dumped). No matter how you try to work it, saying that Flip is the reason we didn't sign Hossa is simply preposterous.

Franzen is very much being paid on potential. Perhaps even more so than Flip. Remember, Franzen's deal is for 11 years. There is considerable projection in making that kind of commitment. Who knows what Mule will be like in 5-8-10 years. Who knows what the cap will be like. Franzen's SALARY this year is $5.5 million. Flip's is $2.5. What they will make in the future (and thus what their cap hit works out to) is based entirely on projection. Which leads me to those saying keeping Flip cost us Hossa. I didn't bother reading the poll, as the premise is ludicrous. With Franzen and Zetterberg both on 10+ year deals, and the prospect of needing to replace Lidstrom soon (and probably Rafalski as well), and many other players needing new contracts in the next 4-5 years, and the uncertainty of the cap...there's no way we could make a long term commitment to a player over 30. Furthermore, even if we could have somehow kept Hossa for ~5.3, we still have to move more than just Flip to fit that in. A more realistic number for a short term deal for Hossa would be 6.5-7 million. So: Flip, Cleary, & Kronwall (or something similar) for Hossa and 2 scrubs is a better comparison.

Wrong. To date, the Wings have claimed $1,883,745 in LTI Exemption. More than Williams' full year salary. Even if he had not been signed, we would STILL NOT have any cap space. Williams was brought in to be a right-handed shot on the 2nd PP unit. Fairly cheap, and familiar with the system (and with all the other new faces, that was certainly a big factor). Who else would have fit that role? As far as making any moves this year, I've said before that it wouldn't be wise. Our options are too limited this year. It is incredibly unlikely that we could bring in anyone who would make any difference. If we have any hope this season, it rests completely on Pav, Hank, Nick, and Rafi being better (possibly Osgood too), and on the rest of the players staying healthy. This team is already good enough on paper to win it all. Making lateral moves on paper in hopes that they translate to improvement on the ice isn't the best strategy. Wait until next summer when our cap situation should be better. We'll have more options, and can likely add pieces without having to subtract anything, or if we do move someone, we can get better players in return. Also, I don't think you can criticize Holland for standing pat or letting players walk this past year. Getting Hank and Mule on long term, cap-friendly, deals was big. Sure, Hank hasn't been great, and Franzen got hurt... I'll bet none of you expected that either. Nor do I think anyone would have predicted in late June / early July that Huds would jump to the KHL or that Lilja would take so long to recover. So basically, Holland 'let' Kopy, Sammy, and Hossa go. Sammy @ 2.5 or Willy @ 1.5? If you were asked in July which was better, I'm sure at least some of you would have picked Willy. (Most would likely say 'neither', but whatever...) That leaves Hossa and Kopy. And who gives a flying F about Kopy, so...Hossa. Got $5.275 from Chicago on a 12! year deal. Would it have been smart for the Wings to not only have 3 long term deals like that, but also have that much commited when we also have to think about replacing Lidstrom and probably Rafalski in the next few years? Even squeezing that 5.275 in would have been difficult (hell, Hudler's 2.5 would have been rough), but what would it have cost to get Hossa on say a 4-6 year deal? His average over the first 7 years is $7.9. Even at only around $6-6.5 would be almost impossible, and the other players we'd have had to downgrade to fit that in could very easily have resulted in an even worse team. And we were adding Helm, Leino, and Ericsson. Some people had to move. I'm sure most of you were salivating in the offseason about the prospect of those 3 joining the team full time. So it's not really fair to criticize now in hindsight. None of you can tell the future either, so stop acting like you would have done any better.

First, we've never had a system both without ties, and without loser points. The OTL point came in 97-98. I can't honestly say that I remember any specific OT games back then (regular season that is), but I certainly can't recall any season in the last 20 years or so being notable for boring OTs. Interesting stats: 96-97, year before the loser point: 214 overtime games, 70 OT goals scored. 97-98, 1st year of loser point: 219 overtime games, 54 OT goals scored. 05-06, 1st year of shootout: 281 overtime games, 136 OT goals scored. This year, through 62 games: 217 overtime games, 79 OT goals scored. Of course, there have been many rule changes along with these, but interesting to note that currently, the % of OT games decided in the OT, is around the same as it was before the loser point was added. Also interesting that there seems to be a marked increase in OT games. (But I'm not going to check other seasons to verify...maybe it's just an anomoly.) And of course, stats can't tell how 'exciting' the games have been, but that's sort of a personal thing anyway. I still believe that the most fair method without ties, is simple win/loss record. Further, fairness should trump some minor 'excitement' factor, even if one could be demonstrated. And finally, for every 'poor team [vs]...better opponent' matchup, you'd see many more even matchups. Penalizing teams for winning close games is fine in short tournaments like the Olympics, where you need to rank teams after only a few games, but in an 80+ game season it just isn't fair or necessary.

I'm sure a lot of folks would argue that some teams sit back in regulation just to get the one point, then in OT to get to the shootout. But besides that, getting rid of the loser point would mean even MORE of a premium on forcing play offensively. You have to win to get anything...

IMO, if they aren't going to have ties, we shouldn't have points. A win is a win; a loss is a loss. Regulation wins aren't necessarily 'better' than an OT win, any more than road wins are better than home wins, or blowouts better than close games, or wins against better teams better than wins against bad teams.

Finland has certainly looked impressive, but the real games start Sunday so we'll see. I'm selfishly hoping for an early Sweden exit, and I couldn't care less about Russia. So I'm hoping the Finns take the Bronze. (USA-Canada is my hope for the gold medal game, of course).

OV

Big Flip fan, so despite myself I can't resist replying... We definitely shouldn't trade him this season. We aren't going to get a difference-maker in return, so there's no point. However, as much as I like him, in my opinion if Babcock plans on keeping him on the third line (and all signs suggest that's the current plan) then we would be better off trying to move him this summer. With the cap space we should gain for next year, moving Flip could possibly make room for a big ticket sniper, which would help this team more than Flip does. Our bottom 6 is fine, assuming we hang on to Helm, Abs, Eaves, and Miller. We don't Flip or a $3 mil cap hit being wasted there. Of course, if we could somehow manage to snag a 30+ goal guy without giving up Flip, then that would be my preference. Not sure how realistic that is though.

Thanks. Is that Monday some kind of Scandanavian holiday? Seems a pretty dumb time to start one of the premier games of the tournament. I guess that's what DVRs are for.

Note in case people don't feel like clicking the link, those times are Eastern. Finland-Sweden; I assume that is midnight Sunday (what most would consider Saturday night), and not Sunday night (midnight Monday)?

If you think Maltby is the reason we are struggling this year, you have some real problems. As to the topic, we could feasibly have a need for a minimum wage 13th forward next season, and Maltby would fill that role about as well as any other options we'll likely have. It could also depend on what Homer does. Not sure we would have a spot for both of them, but maybe. Persoanlly, I think Homer will decide to retire. He's made a few comments suggesting that he's getting sick of the punishment he takes. Either way, our bottom 6 has been fine this season, and certainly will be again next year. We just need to get our top 6 working, and our defense/goaltending consistent.

While I know this is just a thinly veiled 'trade Filppula' post, I'm going to respond as if it wasn't. Try not to let your disappointment in the way the season has gone thus far cloud your judgement. Reactionary, panic-mode change-just-for-the-sake-of-change never works. First, you're ignoring the changes that have already been made. Helm, Ericsson, Leino, Howard, Eaves, and Miller are also new this year. Not too bad considering our limited budget. Valuable roleplayers to replace our aging ones, a potential top 4 d-man, and possible goalie of the future. So Leino didn't work out, and Ericsson isn't looking too hot right now. They were still moves made with the intent on keeping the machine running. Two, without all the injuries, this year would not be so bad. Yeah, that's just speculation...but so is proposing trades. You can't say definitively that any trade we could possibly make would make any difference either. Three, we will likely have a decent amount of cap space next summer. Making trades now while hamstrung by the cap would not really be the smartest move, long term. Better to wait for the offseason when we have more options, and have had more time with a healthy team (hopefully) to evaluate where we really are, what we really need, and what we can really do. Missing the playoffs, if it happens, is not the end of the world. Think about it: Bad cap year + bad injury year + lot of new young players + some key players less effective than expected (due to age, fatigue, whatever...). Most teams, no matter the sport even, in the same situation wouldn't even be thinking of a possible playoff berth. We still have a damn good chance of making it. Says a lot about the quality of this organization.

Interestingly enough, I adjusted OV's numbers by the difference in scoring each year compared to Gretzky's first 5 years (and projected OV to finish with 60 this year, his approximate pace thus far). In round numbers it comes out to: 59, 60, 94, 74, 84 = 371 Almost eerily similar to Gretky's numbers: 51, 55, 92, 71, 87 = 356 But still, no. I really doubt he will average over 40 goals for another 15 years. My guess is he starts tailing off dramatically in another 5 or so. Realistically, I wouldn't bet on him matching Yzerman's numbers, much less Wayne's.

Not that I totally disagree, but it's not just '08. For most of their careers, Pav and Hank have had a certain dynamic together. They haven't shown it this year, but that doesn't mean they can't find it again. And it's not like either has been significantly better while split up. As for Flip, putting him on the third line with less talented wingers could hurt his production just as much or more than it's helped by facing other third liners. Though his play since his return does certainly suggest he could do well. However, if he's going to get stuck on the third line, I'd much rather try to trade him for a goal scorer. We need that a lot more than we need to keep Draper and Helm together.

Few things: Nick is still a top tier defenseman. Just outside top 10 in scoring, and probably top 5 defensively. He might be not be quite worth 7.45 this year, maybe 6.5 - 7. Of all the things to complain about, he should be far down the list. If he decides to return next year, he will certainly take a pay cut. And I'll repeat something I said a while back: If we look at his value over his career as a whole, we probably still owe him about $100 million. He signed his current deal in the middle of a Norris winning season, and was a finalist in his first year of it. As for Helm, Miller, Eaves, and Abs EASILY replacing Draper, Maltby, Cleary, and Homer... no, it's not so easy. For starters, three of your 'replacements' are already on the team. Were you planning to clone them? How easy is that? Ok, Abs replaces Maltby, and only a slight downgrade. Who is available to replace the other three, or what reasonable trades can we make to get someone who isn't FA? Maltby and Homer are in their final years, and if they come back (and I have doubts about both) it will likely be at a reduced rate. Draper has one more year (and is having a decent season thus far). Cleary is not doing that bad either. All the people you mentioned are having decent seasons, with Cleary probably the only one performing below expectations. Seems to me the youth movement you want is already happening, and the majority of players you want to push out are some of the few players meeting expectations. So I fail to understand your 'loyalty' argument.

I thought it was already clear from the numerous other threads, but I guess not. Here are the cap numbers we're looking at: We have zero cap space at this time. None at all. We have been over the cap since day 1. LTIR exemption only covers what we have spent over the cap. You can not 'bank' LTIR. When Lilja is activated we will need to clear $1,195,656 in yearly cap space, and remove at least 1 player. When totally healthy, the four guys who would probably not be in the lineup are: Maltby: $883,333 May: $500,000 Lebda: $650,000 Meech: $483,333 That gives us three basic options: Move Maltby + any one of the other three Keep Maltby, move all three of the others Move one or more of the 'regulars' - Either a 'big' move that brings in someone new, or just a straight salary dump, with one of the reserves above moving into the lineup. That is the situation. I can't see this team waiving Maltby, nor going with just 6 d-men. So I expect someone to go. I don't think they will get rid of any d-men until we know how Lilja will look. So I would look for either Miller or Williams to move in a salary dump, or Flip to move if Kenny can find a deal for a goal scorer in our price range.

By your standard, 95% of the league is overpaid.

Our worst cap situation coincides with our worst injury season in recent memory, in the same season one of our all-time best players starts showing a little age, immediately following three long playoff runs... And you all want to blow the team up and fire the coach of the decade. We are spoiled indeed.

I'm not happy to see Leino go or anything, but at least we got something for him. He wouldn't have cleared waivers. Still, and I hate to be the one to say it, but I kind of wish Kenny would have had a nice talk with Maltby... Now, when Lilja comes back, we'll either need to trade a regular, or waive 3 players instead of two. May + Lebda is not enough salary.

The per day cap hit is all that matters to us, and that doesn't change. If we had any accrued cap space it would be different, but we don't (and can't get enough before the deadline to make a difference).

It would be a nice addition, but the cap numbers just won't work. We'd have to move way too much salary to fit him.