Buppy

That's the thing...you make a thread titled "LA Kings as a model", then suggest the exact same changes that everyone else (including yourself in other threads) already suggested, despite the fact that those changes don't do anything at all to make the Wings more like the Kings. Why even mention the Kings? Should the Wings ty to improve for next year? Of course. But the Kings have nothing to do with that.

Adding Parise and Suter wouldn't make us anything at all like the Kings. In fact, both are far more like the Wings than the Kings. The Kings are a big, aggressive forechecking team whose defensive system stifles their offense. The Wings rely on a potent possession offense, both for scoring and minimizing opportunities against. They are about as opposite as you can get while still playing the same sport. Secondly, why should the Wings want to jump on the Kings bandwagon? That's something fans do, not exceptional hockey franchises. When the Kings or Rangers go a decade as a legit contender every year, then maybe we could consider them models. But not after one good year. The Kings haven't found some secret formula for victory. There is no such thing. They're just playing very well. This reminds of Fes from "That 70's Show" trying to grasp the Rock-Paper-Scissors concept. You need to understand that isn't one thing that beats everything. The way the Kings play isn't new. The way they are built isn't innovative. Everything they are doing has been tried before; has failed before. Nothing always works. Not one single "formula" in all of sporting history, any sport, always works. Closest to that in recent hockey history is the Wings. I have seen nothing in recent years to suggest that the puck-possession system, when executed well, is not as good or better than any other style. Maybe our players are no longer good enough to execute our system, but until I see something to suggest the system is untenable, I'll stay on the Wings' bus and trust Kenny to tweak the roster.

We are no more than "playing well" away from being a serious contender. For most of the season we were near the top of the standings, near the top in GF and GA. That wasn't a fluke or luck. We have issues, as every single team in the league does every single season. It is not possible to put together a team that is too good to lose. By far the most important factor in the playoffs is just playing well. Of course you need talent, and we already have that. Build of the roster or style of play means very little. Whatever you do, you have to do well. Better than your opponent does whatever they do. We could add Parise, Suter, Gaustad, Moen, bring Nick and Helm back, trade Franzen for Perry, trade Miller for Dustin Brown, add whatever goon and a couple big bruising defensemen for the third pair, and whatever else everyone says we "need"...and if we don't play well, we'll still likely lose in the first round. Of course, we should still try to get better, both in raw talent and versatility of style. But we don't need a complete overhaul, and the season won't be over if we miss out on all the prize free agents.

It's fairly common when teams are discussing trades, so I don't think there's any rule against it. Possibly a special case for pending UFAs. Though I wouldn't think anyone would give away permission when they can trade it anyway.

To re-rail this thread off Parise for a minute; anyone else think the above suggests the Wings might have an edge in the Suter sweepstakes (provided he doesn't re-sign in Nashville)? If there's one thing the Wings have over any other team, a history of loyalty to our players is it. Suter has to know he'd get as much or more security/stability here than anywhere else. Combine that with our proven commitment to winning, and a huge chunk of cap space, I'd have to say it puts on the short lit of favorites if he's available come 7/1. Personally, I think he should be the top priority, as he seems the best chance of a legit heir to Nick we're likely to see in the next few years. If I were Kenny, I'd already be on the phone asking what his rights would cost.

That doesn't make any sense. I said you can't say Franzen's production is fine, while criticizing effort. Here you are criticizing his production, so what you quoted doesn't apply. I have no problem with Franzen being criticized for his performance against the Preds. I don't agree that is was laziness, but whatever. I have a wierd feeling that somehow this is going to turn into some "Franzen disappears in the playoffs" thread. How ironic that would be. I know you're not blaming him solely for the loss, but I think you (and others) are using him as an outlet for your anger over the disappointing loss. I do believe that if we had won, and went on to win the Cup, and that flukey goal was his only point in the playoffs, you'd see a lot less criticism of him. I think that shows in the double standard you show in this post. You criticize Franzen for saying he "saves the goods for the playoffs", then praise Cleary for the very same thing. (If Cleary works harder in the playoffs, then by definition he is not giving 100% in the regular season.) No one expected Cleary to score, so no one was disappointed when he didn't. Many expected Franzen to be dominant so his ineffectiveness was disappointing. Makes him an easy target. There's no basis for this "Franzen has incredible potential" line. In over 500 career games he's had maybe 20 or so where he's looked like the superstar some people seem to think he should be. Those are anomolies, and you can't base your everyday expectations from them. Sometimes, things just click. The puck seems to follow you, shots seem to find all the seams, etc. Other times it goes the other way. As a whole he looks like just a good NHL goal-scorer. Closer to Cleary (or at least what we should expect from Cleary playing in the top-6) than an elite superstar like some seem to think he should be.

T-31st, T-34th, Injured but pace would have put him around 25th-35th, T-16th, T-42nd. That's where Franzen has been in goal scoring the past five years. That is top line goal scoring. Perhaps you are equating the term to "elite-in-the-league-sniper". It's not the same thing. He is definitely the former, and definitely not the latter.

29 goals IS a pretty big deal, considering that only 35 players in the entire league managed to score that many. Only 10 players scored more than 35. Parise, whom everyone seems to consider the messiah, scored 31. Virtually identical goals/game. Franzen is a top-line sniper. You can't say his production is fine, but then criticize him for lacking effort. If more effort doesn't equate to more production then it's a little pointless to ***** about it. If you believe his production should be higher, what are you basing that on? A few anomolous hot streaks/games? Since breaking out, he's consistently produced at a 30-ish goal level. He has his hot and cold streaks like every other scorer. The only basis for thinking he should be anything more is if you only look at a few peaks and base your expectations off that. It doesn't make any sense. Zetterberg going from 4 straight 30+ goal seasons (including seasons scoring 39 and 43) to now scoring in the low 20s the past few years (hmm... every year since he signed his long-term deal...), and Datsyuk dropping to a ~22 goal pace after 7 straight years in the 27-33 range has a lot more to do with the 'lack of top-6 goal scoring' we seem to all be so worried about, than does Franzen not being a top-10 sniper, regardless of effort level.

Sorry, are you trying to use Hossa to show that people do not unreasonably scapegoat players when we lose? We had a good playoff that year, but we did lose. Certainly once we went up 3-2 in the finals we expected to win, and the dissapointment was every bit as bad (or worse to some) than the losses since. Hossa did have a decent playoff (though below expectations), and people still use him (and Stuart) as scapegoats. That is exactly the type of thing I'm suggesting is happening to Franzen now. And you really wish we had Hossa instead? An extra $1.3M cap hit, and a year longer...for fewer goals? How many points did Hossa score in the Blackhawk's first-round loss? Franzen is a 30-goal scorer at a 30-goal scorer price (less actually, but fair when considering term, and especially considering we had to re-sign him at a high-value point). Sure he's 'soft', and plays too much on the perimeter. Just not nearly to the extent some people suggest. Expectations are too high, based pretty much solely on a few anomolies (Colorado series, 5 goal game...). But whatever, I'm not going to get into some big, pointless debate with people who are looking for someone to hate. You'll get over it or you wont. At least he's a player who matters, rather than the typical LGW 4th-liner/3rd-pairing/backup goalie whipping boy.

FIFY

Much the same thing was said of Richards last summer, and he ended up signing for a fair hit. I'd expect the same of Parise...long-term deal in the $6-7M range. Suter should be our highest priority, even if it means not going after Parise. Nick may come back, but he won't be here forever, and Suter is by far the best potentially available defenseman even looking forward a few years (depending on what happens with some pending RFAs). It's a much begger need than a sniper.

I'm thinking an end of the Thornton/Marleau era in San Jose. Rebuild around Couture, kind of like Philly did with Giroux, and whomever they get in return for Thornton/Marleau. (Nash maybe?)

Evidence strongly suggests that Franzen is just a typical 30-ish-goal scorer, with typical 30-goal scorer consistency problems, who can occasionally get hot enough to be dominant, rather than the under-achieving 40+ scorer most here seem to think he is. As is usually the case with whipping boys, one short stretch of brilliance leads to gross over-expectations, which inevitably leads to disappointment. Take away the Colorado series and I'm willing to bet a whole lot of people would have a much different opinion of him.

It would look bad, but we'd still be 8th-10th overall in the league. 4th place in our division (as well as the Atlantic) is going to be higher than 1st in two, possibly three others. Not up to our standards, but not that terrible either.

http://www.sarcasmdetectorrepair.com

As previously stated, the cap has gone up so fast because revenues have gone up so fast. I have a hard time believing the cap will go up. I think the owners will push for a higher percentage of revenues. Players currently get like 57%. The NBA has basically a 50/50 split. It's also looking like the cap may be outpacing spending. Half the league this year is $4M or more under the cap, and only 6 teams are spending at or over. Average cap spending is about $58.8M, around $5.5M under the cap. With long-term deals limiting the FA pool, teams are going to have a tough time finding anyone to give the money to. I think the players will give up a few points and the cap will stay flat or go down slightly to start the new CBA.

I wouldn't they "knew what they had" as in they knew (or were particularly confident even) that they would become stars in the NHL. You never know for sure what players other teams are aware of or how highly they value them, and you wouldn't risk passing on Pav seven times if you had any strong belief that he'd become even close to what he is now. Maybe you take your chances passing in the first few rounds while the well known prospects are taken, but after the top 100 or so, pretty much everyone is relatively unknown. The Wings just aim for players with a high skill level who seem to have the sense to fit our two-way system and hope they reach their potential. Sometimes you get lucky like Datsyuk, sometimes you get Per Backer, sometimes you land in the middle like Flip or Huds.

Many of those "comparables" signed several years ago when the cap was significantly lower. Hossa is on a career deal. St.Louis is on a 35+. Just because the cap hit is similar doesn't mean the contracts are. That said, it does seem like quite an overpayment, especially without knowing what will happen with the cap next year. But if the cap goes up another $3M+ and continues to climb over the deal, it's not so bad. Cap goes down and/or Grabovski starts to decline it'll be terrible. Flip has another year left. If he has another year like this one (and the cap goes up or stays flat), he will likely ask for, deserve, and get $5M+.

Not a great example, since Boston's PP also sucks. Edmonton and Vancouver both cycle down low alot. Get the defenders moving around. Nashville plays theirs pretty similar to ours. There isn't really any one thing to fix the PP. Just be smart, patient, quick, work hard... Same for the PK I suppose. I want to say shot blocking, but LA, Vancouver, and NJ are all near the top in PK and bottom in blocks. Sharks are near the top in blocks but bottom in PK.

For the record, Flip and JWilly were also hurt shortly before Miller was claimed.

As a rule, prospects are less valuable when they are a few years away from the NHL. Then consider that most of our prospects are high-risk/high-reward type players and the value drops even more. Smith and Nyquist are probably the only two who would bring a return in line with their potential. Sheahan is probably a safe bet to be at least a 3rd/4th line checker. Andersson likely no more than 12/13 forward in the NHL so his value is very low anyway. The rest could end up anywhere from star to bust. So from our prespective, why give up a potential star for a 4th-liner? Or from the other team, why give up a known commodity for a potential bust? It would be one thing to include a prospect or two in a package for a star, but not for the type of role-players that were moved at the deadline. Seems some people just wanted something to happen just for the sake of something happening (not necessarily you, just a general comment), so people see the lack of a move in the worst possible light. They hear a comment like Holland wasn't interested in moving prospects and assume it means every prospect, as if teams were lighting up Holland's phone offering quality roster players for Willie Coetzee and Kenny was just hanging up.

Good to see one of our top players become the whipping boy. All the years of idiots bitching about scrubs of marginal impact was getting stale. I thought about interjecting some rationality, but decided it would be pointless. Those who want to hate Franzen will do so regardless. They'll overstate his flaws, downplay or outright dismiss his strengths. Once he goes on another hot streak you'll all go back to jerking off to his picture while burning Ericsson in effigy. Goal and assist tonight. On pace for 30+ goals, and career highs in assists and points. Yeah, such awful depreciation.

I'm starting to like when "bad" things happen to the Wings, just for the comically absurd over-reactions from some of the "fans". The fan in me of course wants to see the Wings win it all to prove the pessimists wrong, I just hate that they'd get to enjoy the victory as well. A small part of me wants them to lose in the 1st round, but that would: (A) suck, and (B) prove them right. Though it is what the pessimists deserve. A smaller part of me hopes they make it to the finals, take a 3-0 lead in the series then blow it. Get everyone back on the bandwagon then crush all their dreams. That would just be too horrible for the rest of us though. What I'd really like to see is some stakes. Those who refuse to put any faith in this team are just cowards. Too afraid to believe in our chances, because it'd be too much of a letdown if we don't win (and too be honest, there's a better chance that we'll lose, though I would also say that for every team). Get out some of the anger now, knowing there's still a chance they could be wrong and if they are, they get to celebrate. They can't take a risk. Can't ride the bandwagon because they're too afraid to get hurt if it crashes. It takes a lot more spine to say that we are good enough, even if we admit that we're not as good as we hoped. We may not be the odds-on favorite, though you can't really say we aren't yet either. We are one of several teams that have a legitimate shot. Cowards just can't risk being disappointed and wrong, so they have to stomp down their expectations so they're either right or happy to be wrong. Gutless. The stakes I'd like to see: If you don't think the Wings have what it takes, and we get past the 2nd round, you're not allowed to watch the remainder of the playoffs. (Not even other teams or highlights, or check any scores, news, etc...) Come back toward the end of June, and if we won the Cup, no celebrating. You have to spend the next season rooting for the Jackets or Islanders or some other crap team, and you must hold them to the same standard you hold the Wings (anything short of a Cup is a failure). A year of penance and and apology. Then we'll welcome you back.

That'd be a gross overpayment, regardless of Stuart's plans for the summer.

I think he'd be a good addition, and I've mentioned him before, but I think LA would want a scorer for him. If we could get him cheap though (like a 3rd + lower prospect) I'd be all for it.